Does God really cause all things ?

[rick]

I know Ray said that Christendom is always trying to get God off the hook.

Below is an excerpt from Rays paper from free will part B






I could go on and on like this for a hundred pages. I could go through the entire Bible proving that all is of God, not of man's will. It is always God; it is never man's will that is the first cause of all things. Nowhere in the entirety of the Bible is there anything suggesting that man has a "free will." Man's will is not free. Man has a will, but it is not free from the causes that make it do what it does.

According to Ray , God is the first cause of all things and I believe Ray when he said he could do a hundred pages on this subject and can show us from the entirety of the bible.

So according to Rays teaching as I understand it, what I'm getting is if God wants person A to murder person B it's going to happen but I know God does not sin and cannot be tempted to sin.

However person A acted on his / her circumstances and murdered person B which God caused to begin with.

Does person A do this thing after being caused to do this thing because he / she is to spiritual weak not to do it or because Satan tempted person A to kill person B  even though God had ordered it through circumstances ?

God bless 

[lareli]

Interesting question. Makes me wonder why God needs Satan at all... Ray said no one makes us sin, we are sinning machines by design. So if we are sinning machines and too spiritually weak to do good by design then why did God create the devil?

Without the serpent in the garden of Eden wouldn't Eve had eventually disobeyed Gods command anyway? Since she was created too weak to do good?

[Dennis Vogel]

Just remember one of the reasons we are here: To learn about good and evil.

[Kat]

When I think of God the Father knowing He is the source of all things and the means by which all things continue to exist, this tells me what His sovereignty is... He has absolutely no limit, none. That I believe is what "first cause" means... He is THE SOURCE of everything and by/through the Son He brought about this creation to be exactly as it is, meaning everything is operating precisely as He designed it to be. That's the law of cause and effect that God the Father has put into effect, as well as all the other laws that makes everything function as it does.

So all the evil that's in this world was by His original design, our weakness to the lusts of the flesh, Satan as His adversary, Everything is exactly according to His plan to bring about the results we see happening here. He knows, down to the most minute detail of what everything will be, before it happens, "knowing the end from the beginning." It's all according to what He has already determined it would be. So He does not need to now personally bring about any of the evil in this world, He has already designed (first cause) every single thing to be as it is, so everything turns out as He knew it would.

As Dennis said, one of the reasons we are here: To learn about good and evil. This life is for a learning experience, what we actually feel with our senses hard wire into our brains a lasting impression/knowledge of whatever is was that happened, something that we will not soon forget. So we have to taste/experience the fruit of both good and evil to know/learn these things.

This first is from the Trinity article and then an email.

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html -----------------------------

This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).

And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.

God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."

"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2477.0.html ----

"Free Will" does not exist because it is a physiologicaly impossibility and the Scriptures CONDEMN any such vanity-crazed idea.  Have you ever heard of the law of "cause and effect"?  It means for every effect there is a CAUSE.  This IS scientific. Therefore all of your thoughts and actions ARE CAUSED by something. Usually something that you are not even aware of, but being caused nonetheless.  This "cause" is what is responsible for your thoughts and actions. And once something is "caused" to happen, it could not have been otherwise.
 
God is the FIRST CAUSE of all law and matter.  I use the Scriptures to prove to Christians that they have no free will, as they claim to actually believe the Scriptures.  I would not use the Scriptures to prove to an athiestic evolutionary scientist that he has no free will. There I would use scientific law.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Jeff]

Kat & Dennis (or anyone),

"As Dennis said, one of the reasons we are here: To learn about good and evil."

I don't mean this at all, frivolously.

Evil is just pouring out of humanity like a broken dam.

If I were to say "Only God is good", the rest is of Satan, would that be close to being accurate?  We live in this evil time/place and the only contrast is between God and our own existence.

I think we've got the evil down pretty good, so wouldn't it be more that we're here to learn that only God is good?

I don't know if that makes any sense.

[Dennis Vogel]

Ray has asked more than once "Where/when did God and Jesus learn about good and evil."

Something's cannot be answered in this life. We have to wait.

If I were to say "Only God is good", the rest is of Satan, would that be close to being accurate?

How would we know "God is good" were it not for evil? Good exposes evil.

[dave]

Yes 

[rick]

Interesting question. Makes me wonder why God needs Satan at all... Ray said no one makes us sin, we are sinning machines by design. So if we are sinning machines and too spiritually weak to do good by design then why did God create the devil?

Without the serpent in the garden of Eden wouldn't Eve had eventually disobeyed Gods command anyway? Since she was created too weak to do good?

Your question Leeds to another question for me which is this , all choices are caused choice and as you say we are sinning machine's so what is Satan's role ? Can one sin without a cause ?

Ray said that no one makes and uncaused choice, so knowing this and also knowing God does not sin or tempt anyone  to sin is probably why God created Satan.

Remember no one can make and uncause choice and God does not temp a man to sin but Satan does.

But at the same time God is the cause of all things directly or indirectly but either way God is the cause.

One should not lose sight of Gods plan, it's like Ray said, evil is like a scaffolding around a building but when the building is done the scaffolding comes done and is discarded.


When God allows one to understand they do not have free will or free choise and understand His plan one can see how beautiful God is.

GOD IS PERFECT.

GOD BLESS.

[Kat]

Here's a thought Rick, man (mankind) sins when "drawn away by his own lust" of the flesh, our own sinful carnal nature.

James 1:14  but each man is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed.
v. 15  Then the lust, when it hath conceived, beareth sin: and the sin, when it is fullgrown, bringeth forth death. (ASV)

1John 2:16  For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.

Now thinking of Satan, he's the adversary (1Pe 5:08) whose main purpose is to deceive the world about/against God.

Rev 12:9  So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world...

So Satan is here to deceive and keep the world blind to the truths.

2Cor 4:3  But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
v. 4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Luke 8:11  "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
v. 12  Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

This is from the article 'The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed' - Part C.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html ----------------

The workings of Satan have deceived the whole world including the ones whom God would later call to be His elect:

"And then shall that Wicked ['Lawless One'—the beast within all of us] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan [It is not Satan, but is 'after the 0working of Satan] with all power and signs and lying wanders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God [yes, God Himself] shall send them strong dilusion, that they should believe a lie [Gk: 'the lie']..." (II Thes. 2:9-11).

And just how much of mankind and how much of this world has God given to that same Old Serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, to deceive? 

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which DECEIVES THE WHOLE WORLD" (Rev. 12:9).

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible they shall deceive the very elect" (Matt. 24:24)

Once one becomes a member of God's very elect, he can be deceived no more.

Don't you be deceived. This verse does not say: "Satan, which deceives the whole world (except the two billion twenty-first century professing Christians of the world)." No, Satan deceives "the whole world," including the two billion professing Christians. How many have escaped the deception of Satan by the use of their "free will?"  Not one man possesses a will by which he can freely resist Satan. If we are to "resist the Devil so that he flees from us," we will need the power of God's Spirit in us.
v
All that has been, and is, and will be, has been planned and choreographed down to the movement of the last atom, by the Designer and Operator of the Universe, without Whom everything would fall apart in oblivion: 

"For by Him [Jesus] were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible [unseen powers], whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by Him, and for Him. And He is before all things and by Him all things consist ['has its cohesion,' ]" (Col. 1:16-17).

Since "by Jesus all things consist and have their cohesion," why is it that only man and his fabled "free-moral-agency-will" is the only truly "free radical" in the universe? Nonsense! Even "free radicals" operate under law—God operates all that exists, by law. Jesus did not create the universe and all that in it is, and then goes off on a trip to let the universe fend for itself. God presently is "working—operating" all that exists, and that includes the "will" of all mankind. Here's some more Scriptural proof:

"...God which works ['operates'] all in all " (I Cor. 12:6). God works all that there is in all that there are. Pretty neat, huh?  When we have a God this great, we can expect nothing but perfect assured success.
v
But above all:

"We ought to obey GOD rather than MEN."

And so we have read that God used Satan to try, and test Job, He used Satan to try, and test Jesus, He uses Satan to try, and test believers, and He also uses Satan to try, and test THE WHOLE WORLD:

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour [Gk: 'swallow down']: Whom RESIST stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished ['experienced] in your brethren that are IN THE WORLD"  (I Pet. 5:8-9).

As I have said before, God does not turn man's lemons into His lemonade. No, God first creates the lemons and then turns them into lemonade.

God does not "allow" Satan to do ANYTHING. Satan was created by God to do exactly what God wants him to do—nothing more and nothing less.

Satan is an intricate and necessary creation of God to accomplish His awesome purpose and goal for the human race. When God desires something, HE CREATES IT. God desired an "adversary," an "enemy," but there is no natural adversary or enemy of God:

"I am the LORD, and there is NONE else, there is NO God beside me"  (Isa. 45:6).

And so when God needed a "god" to rule ALL THE NATIONS of this world, HE CREATED ONE—one that would lie, deceive, accuse, tempt, and murder.  A Devil who would "deceive the WHOLE WORLD." But one who would appear as "An ANGEL of Light." My how flawlessly he has performed his duty to God. And you thought he was a "free moral" renegade running amuck through heaven and earth destroying God's handiwork!
v
"Declaring the END from the BEGINNING..."  (Isa. 46:10).

"For in Him we LIVE, and MOVE, and have our BEING [Gk: 'we ARE'—we exist]..." (Acts 17:28).

All energy, all matter, all creation, and all humans are in God. We can only "live and move... IN HIM."  And this is why:

"O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself. It is not in man that walks to direct his steps" (Jer. 10:23).

No man has a will that can choose contrary to what God already knows will be: "...and calls those things which be not [thoughts and deeds which have not yet been supposedly 'freely' thought of] as though they were [as though they already were thought of—how is that 'freedom' of the will?]" (Rom. 4:17).

I will repeat this until I am blue in the face, and perchance somebody out there will say, "Ah, yes, now I get it." Once more: Since God says very plainly that He knows all things and that He knows all things before they happen, how is it then possible that anyone can think a thought which God didn't know he would have to think? And if God already knows every thought that you must think: how are you free to not think those very foreknown thoughts and those foreknown thoughts only?

If any person in the history of the world can think one thought that God did not foreknow that he would think, then God cannot;

"call those things which be not as though they were."

"Man's goings [Heb: 'steps'] are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?" (Prov. 20:24).

"The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord." (Prov. 16:1).

No one can make one statement out of his mouth, unless it was first pre-ordained, foreknown, and approved of, by God!
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rick]

Hi Kat,

This is interesting to me where James says each man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust and enticed.

I keep thinking about what Ray said that we do not make any choice that is not caused, ok, let's go back to Eve just before disobeying God's command , do not eat of.

I don't think Eve would of taken from the tree of good and bad unless tempted to do so, Ray had proved Eve was a sinner before she did eat but it was the serpent who tempted her.

I know we all have a sinful nature or are to spiritually weak to resist and it does not take to much for one to fall short.

But whatever I do, is there not a cause behind what I do? Sometimes I think of myself as a receiver that once I receive the cause then the effect must follow.

I find everything I do does indeed have a cause behind it, something causes me to eat and to  work and to sleep and to pay my bills, I discovered self preservation seems to be the cause of all I do.

Self preservation must be a law of God that He instills in us all but what causes anyone to sin or should I say what entices us to sin ?

Is it God who entices us to sin? I say no because we know God does not temp anyone to sin, is it us who causes us to sin ? I'm not sure what to answer but Ray did teach us that Satan deceives the whole world as to the truth of God but Ray also taught us that no one can resist the devil except by the power of God so I ask is it not Satan who causes all to sin?

And then a man is drawn away with his own lust and enticed .

So can  one say that Eve once tempted was drawn away by her own lust and desire to be wise?

God bless.









James 1:14  but each man is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed.
v. 15  Then the lust, when it hath conceived, beareth sin: and the sin, when it is fullgrown, bringeth forth death. (ASV

[Kat]

Is it God who entices us to sin? I say no because we know God does not temp anyone to sin, is it us who causes us to sin ? I'm not sure what to answer but Ray did teach us that Satan deceives the whole world as to the truth of God but Ray also taught us that no one can resist the devil except by the power of God so I ask is it not Satan who causes all to sin?

And then a man is drawn away with his own lust and enticed .

So can  one say that Eve once tempted was drawn away by her own lust and desire to be wise?

Hi Rick, what God being the 'first cause' means to me is He's responsible for all the laws of cause and effect that are put in place from the beginning of this creation... it's every single thing that is put in motion to bring about the results of whatever happens.

Now of course Satan is a major player in enticing us to sin, he is God's 'first cause' by creating him in the first place. And our carnal nature (first cause created within us) is what Satan influences... with all his cunning persuasion it's easy for him to influence us to sin. But why couldn't Satan persuasion get Christ to sin, he certainly knew exactly what to entice Him with? Jesus did/does not have a carnal mind, therefore no lust can tempt Him! The carnal lusts that God created human's with is what makes us so spiritually weak, we can't help but to give in to these desires. The causes that are already put in place are just the little influences that bring the desires to our attention, our carnal lust then takes over and WE do the sinning.

Here are a few places Ray spoke on these things.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2477.0.html ---

"Free Will" does not exist because it is a physiologicaly impossibility and the Scriptures CONDEMN any such vanity-crazed idea.  Have you ever heard of the law of "cause and effect"?  It means for every effect there is a CAUSE.  This IS scientific. Therefore all of your thoughts and actions ARE CAUSED by something. Usually something that you are not even aware of, but being caused nonetheless.  This "cause" is what is responsible for your thoughts and actions. And once something is "caused" to happen, it could not have been otherwise.
 
God is the FIRST CAUSE of all law and matter.  I use the Scriptures to prove to Christians that they have no free will, as they claim to actually believe the Scriptures.  I would not use the Scriptures to prove to an athiestic evolutionary scientist that he has no free will. There I would use scientific law.


http://bible-truths.com/email4.htm#trial --------------------------

Not everything in the Bible is "easy" to understand. It takes God's spirit and it take wisdom. God supplies both.

God does send custom made trials to all of us. He does NOT, however, do the "trying" in these trials.

A trial is where evidence is presented to determine one's guilt or innocence. God is far above us carnal matters. God already knows IN ADVANCE what we will or will not do under our trials.

Therefore, He does not determine from the evidence whether we passed or failed the trial; whether we are guilt or innocent. The trial is for OUR benefit, not HIS!


http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm ------------------------

When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE!  True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause US to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.

But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!

Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying:  Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED?  Why?   Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.

This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them.  IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT.   "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.

Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.

It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.

God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well!  We have this absolute promise from God:

    "When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!


http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#temptation -----------------

Why would Jesus tell us to pray that God should NOT lead us into temptation [Gk: trial] when, in reality, we DO go through trials?

After all, Jesus was led of the spirit into the wilderness for the express purpose of being "tried."

Then James comes along and says

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, NEITHER TEMPTS HE ANY MANY." (James 1:13).

And if that is bad enough, James first tells us in James 1:2 to

"...COUNT IT ALL JOY WHEN YE FALL INTO DIVERS TEMPTATIONS"!

What is going on here?

Although this might sound like a triple contradiction, it is not.

First let's be abundantly clear that God, HIMSELF, does not ever do the actual "trying or tempting."

"And the SERPENT said unto Eve... And when the woman SAW that the tree was good for food,  and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES ['...the lust of the eyes ... is NOT OF the Father...' John 2:16], and a tree to be DESIRED to make one wise, she TOOK of the fruit thereof, and DID EAT... And the woman said, THE SERPENT BEGUILED [deceived] ME..." (Gen. 3:6 & 13).

"And lead us not into temptation but DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE [Satan]" (Matt. 6:13).

"...when YOU  FALL into divers [various] temptations [trials]..." (James 1:2).

"But every man is tempted, when he is DRAWN AWAY OF HIS OWN LUST, and enticed. THEN when lust has conceived, it brings forth SIN: and sin, when it is finished [full grown], brings DEATH" (James 1:14-15).

From all of these examples it is abundantly clear that it is not the OBJECT that is the TEMPTATION, but rather the temptation COMES FROM WITHIN, not from without. It was not the "tree" that MADE Eve lust. It is not the "pretty woman" that MAKES a man lust. The LUST IS IN THE MIND, IN THE HEART, and therefore, the trial IS IN THE HEART AND MIND, not in the literal flesh.

And so we pray that God should not lead us into temptation, but rather DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE [Satan] WHO DOES LEAD US INTO TEMPTATION.

But notice again, we pray that we should be "DELIVERED." We cannot be 'delivered' from something UNLESS WE ARE ALREADY IN IT! God intends that we get "IN IT"--trials and temptations, which are GOOD FOR US, AFTER we have gone through them.

The longer we live the Christian walk, the better we should get at this. Hence Paul tells us,

"For if we would JUDGE OURSELVES, we should not be judged" (I Cor. 11:31).

The MORE we 'judge ourselves' the LESS we are "lead into temptation." We learn to cut it off at the pass, as they say. It is by God's divine counsel that we are led into temptation (even if God never DIRECTLY tries or tempts us), and it is by God's divine counsel that He delivers us from the "evil one."

Hope that helps a little.

God be with you,
Ray

[cheekie3]

Rick -

I believe I know where you are coming from.

We discover that God is Sovereign Supreme.

We discover that we have no will outside of causes - and Our Sovereign Supreme is the ultimate cause of all things caused - and there is nothing that happens without a cause - and this includes everything any one of us desires (in our hearts), thinks (with our minds), speaks (with our tongues) and does (with our actions); whether these be of Good or Evil.

We discover that all that is Good in us and in everyone is of Our Sovereign Supreme.

We discover that we want the race to end - but we are still faced with our fiery trials of daily struggles and sufferings and frustrations.

We discover the differences between being cunning, being clever, being educated (or is that being indoctrinated and brainwashed into obeying Mankind rather than Our Heavenly Father), having knowledge and obtaining the Wisdom of Our Sovereign Supreme.

Some of us then discover that all that we believe we know is an illusion powered by the Wickedness of Evil Men and Principalities with their lies and deception.

Some of us then get angry and upset - and initially feel powerless to do anything about the Evil on the Earth - and some of us even feel like the worst failure to our families - then we remember that we have Our Sovereign Supreme who is above ALL and is in perfect control of ALL.

So we remember that we should live in His Holy Spirit and the Fruit thereof - being firstly in His Love, His Joy, and His Peace (that passes all understanding), then being in His Forbearance (His Patience and His Restraint), His Kindness and His Goodness, and finally being in His Fidelity (His Faith and His Faithfulness), His Meekness (His Humility, Our Submissiveness & Our Patience), and His Self Control (leading to our Self Control).

Then we realise Love is Light is Life - and being Alive is very worthwhile as we patiently await the manifestation of the Sons and Daughters of Our Supreme Sovereign.

Kind Regards.

Overawed George.
 

[rick]

Hi Kat,

The understanding I was seeking I believe I have found, I understand all is of God but I see the separation between God , Satan and myself and why I'm accountable for my actions but not responsible.

Understanding doesn't make things easier but an accurate knowledge of God is necessary.

God bless.

[lauriellen]

What Dennis wrote made me think....I too wonder how God/Jesus gained knowledge of good and evil. Ray spoke about how he didn't believe that Jesus was given ALL things for nothing...that maybe He had to go thru something? I wonder if this whole process isn't something that has happened over and over? I can still hear Ray talking about the 'heavenly host' and saying 'WHO ARE THEY?"