Humans predate neandrathals?

[lilitalienboi16]

Or, at least, exist separately from them as their own species?

This is so very fascinating. Please read!

http://discovermagazine.com/2016/june/15-when-neanderthals-replaced-us

[indianabob]

Question?
Did Jesus know about this view of his Father's creation?
Would Jesus agree? I have to wonder!
Indiana Bob

[cheekie3]

lilitalienboi16 -

Or, at least, exist separately from them as their own species?

This is so very fascinating. Please read!

http://discovermagazine.com/2016/june/15-when-neanderthals-replaced-us

Interesting.

Thanks for posting.

I find most of what is reported is at best hypotheses or theories; and I remain unconvinced most of the time.

From time to time I meditate on the history of mankind according to The Scriptures.

I often wonder if we have any witnesses in The Scriptures about the following:

1. Are there are two (2) seeds of mankind - the seed of the woman and the seed of Satan. I believe there are Scriptures.

2. Are these two (2) seeds of mankind after Adam and Eve; and Cain and Abel (and Seth). I believe there are Scriptures.

3. Are there any details about mankind prior to Adam and Eve; and is mankind prior to Adam and Eve a part of the two (2) seeds. I do not know of any Scriptures.

4. Did mankind prior to Adam and Eve become extinct. I do not know of any Scriptures.

5. Are the two (2) seeds alive and well today; and did the two (2) seeds end at the Birth / Life / Death / Burial / Resurrection of Jesus Christ the Just. I do not know of any Scriptures.

6. Where do the Elect fit in with regards to the two (2) seeds. I do not know of any Scriptures.

Then again, it could be my mind going into overdrive mode.

Does anyone else dwell on these things; and what are your conclusions.

George.

[Kat]

Hi George, do not get so wrapped up in the symbols that you lose sight that the story of the seeds is a parable about mankind.

Gen 3:15  And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed...

The curse was not on Satan himself, it was on the one seed that Satan manipulated... who could that have been besides Adam and Eve? At that particular time it had to be the other people that were already in the world... after that it was Cain and Abel. It's always God's people against whoever Satan influences against them - pagans, pharisees, the church.

2Tim 2:20  Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable.

John 8:44  You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Satan was not literally their father, but they are his seed. The two seeds will be at "enmity" until the end of this age and the curse is removed.

Rev 21:1  Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
v. 2  Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
v. 3  And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
v. 4  And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
v. 5  Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."

Rev 22:3  And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[cheekie3]

Kat -

Hi George, do not get so wrapped up in the symbols that you lose sight that the story of the seeds is a parable about mankind.

Gen 3:15  And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed...

The curse was not on Satan himself, it was on the one seed that Satan manipulated... who could that have been besides Adam and Eve? At that particular time it had to be the other people that were already in the world... after that it was Cain and Abel. It's always God's people against whoever Satan influences against them - pagans, pharisees, the church.

2Tim 2:20  Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable.

John 8:44  You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Satan was not literally their father, but they are his seed. The two seeds will be at "enmity" until the end of this age and the curse is removed.

Rev 21:1  Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
v. 2  Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
v. 3  And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
v. 4  And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
v. 5  Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."

Rev 22:3  And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Nicely put.

Thank You.

Kind Regards.

George.

[lilitalienboi16]

Question?
Did Jesus know about this view of his Father's creation?
Would Jesus agree? I have to wonder!
Indiana Bob

Hi bob,

Jesus knows all these things about His creation. As to 'this view of His Father's creation,' i can't say I follow. What view? That the earth is very old, humanity is hundreds of thousands years old, and God didn't create the earth in 6 literal 24 hour days? That 'view?'

[indianabob]

Hi Alex,

I try to be circumspect about these topics.
You are a scientist and depend to a large degree on what one can learn about the human body through science and practical observation.
I do respect that approach, but I also realize that the Bible is not a book of science to explain physical things and so I have reservations about using spiritually derived knowledge to explain physical mysteries and mixing the two disciplines as if they are complimentary, they are not.
So you are correct in supposing that I do not believe the earth is "old" just because some research scientist forms an opinion that it is and bases their views upon some questionable physical test about the age of rocks and artifacts which in themselves depend upon the so called steady state of the environment. We simply do not know how much "daughter" radiation is in any observed species of radioactive matter. AND we certainly cannot trust the average popular scientist to have the whole truth just because their "truth" is popular.

What did Ray Smith say about all of the popular and long standing church groups? They are ALL wrong!
So why cannot we apply the same description to ALL geologic science that questions scripture?
Why not patiently seek a better explanation that agrees with scripture when God is ready to share that knowledge?

2. I don't know the age of the earth, period. Neither does anyone else.
3. I am not of the opinion that mankind began at the same time the planet was created, it could have been later.
4. I am not prepared to accept that God had to derive Adam from a previously existing humanoid type biped with limited human traits.
If God wanted, God certainly could have created Adam in one solar day and fully functional with a mind and language skills.
5. I do not believe that there had to be some large number of pre-humans for Adam's children to copulate with to expand earth's population.
That is easily refuted when we realize that brothers and sisters and cousins came together to expand the original population.
Kids will be kids and age 14 is a usual starting point unless societal prohibitions exist, and they didn't.

I know that you are very busy and although I would love to discuss further it may not be feasible.

Kindly offered, Indiana Bob

[Dennis Vogel]

This universe operates on the laws that God commanded. If it did not obey those laws then God would be a deceiver (liar). But God cannot lie.

Tit 1:2  In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

When we properly use those laws to determine anything we are playing by the absolute rules that God installed (but there still are undiscovered laws).

So when several types of laws are used to determine the age of anything you can have confidence the result is at least in the ballpark. God cannot lie.

[Kat]

but I also realize that the Bible is not a book of science to explain physical things and so I have reservations about using spiritually derived knowledge to explain physical mysteries and mixing the two disciplines as if they are complimentary, they are not.

Bob, I find that comment astonishing. Of course the Bible is totally in line with any true scientific study of physical things... how could it not be?  You quote Ray, but apparently you don't believe quite a bit of what he taught. He had much to say about the age of the earth and he gave 'true' science a great deal of credit in his studies. Ray also has a whole conference about his study of the age of this earth and what young earthers - Christian scientists believe and what true science teaches and the truth of it all. Here are some excerpts.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=5815.0 ------------------

But I'm telling you I've had my eyes opened to a few things here this past year and it's not what everybody thinks. It's not like the scientist think, that is those that are still under the delusion of Darwinism, the species from a common origin and all that. It's not like the preachers preach. So what is it all about? Well I'm beginning to understand it and it's just amazing.
v
So we have the theologians poking fun at the scientist. They say, 'it is so stupid that they think that the earth is billions of years old. Don't they know that God made it in 6 days.'

All these theologians look at all this stratification of the earth that took millions of years to form and say, 'it was Noah's flood. Just open your Bible, it's Noah flood, it laid down all the stratas, it's so simple.' No paleface, it's not that simple. 

The theologians with this simple little fairytale, Jeannie in a bottle theory, is not true. The scientist thinking that all this came about without some sort of superior, intelligent, powerful, almighty, wise source, is also not true. But there is an element of truth in both. Theologians accept that there is a God. That He did create the heavens and the earth. 

Evolutionist and/or most scientist will try to tell you how it came about without intelligence. But much of there research is true. I mean when they go out and say they found this earth's strata and based on different isotope measurements of different elements that have radiation, these things are shooting off radiation at different rates and it can be measured. They then say this strata is 800 million years old. 800 million? It can't even be 8000 years according to theologians. Well is all that scientific jargon gobbledygook or do they know a little bit about what they are talking about? 

I mean it is scientist that invented computers, automobiles, rocket ships and pacemakers. It is scientist that do this not theologians. Most theologians do not invent lasers, scientist do. So don't think that all scientist are stupid or something.

You know when we say, 'you don't need to be a rocket scientist,' why do we say that? Why do we use that terminology? Because to be a rocket scientist you've got to have more formulas and more knowledge about physics and quantum math, engineering, general science, specific science and specialized science, than you can shake a stick at. These men are absolute geniuses. 
v
You say, 'well we thought that God created the heavens and the earth 6000 years ago. Now you are telling us it's more like 6 billion. My faith is crumbling.' No, I'm going to build some of that faith back up. You are going to see this first chapter of Genesis falls right in line with what scientist are now seeing. It does not fall in line with what theologians have said for 2000 years. It does not. But it does fall in line with true science, it absolutely does.
v
So it is kind of an exciting time to live, because I think there is some real things around the corner and some people are afraid of it. Some people are kind of afraid of science. But I'm telling you I'm just becoming more and more convinced, you know, bring it on, because it fits.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=12581.0 ---------------

Dear Alan:  Yes, it's true--the Church is really one of the worst enemies of
God's Word.  Many scientists know much about science and physics, but
conclude that there is no God and we are the product of blind evolution.
On the other hand, Christian theologians have studied God's Word for
thousands of years, but deny the facts of Science and God's Word.  There
is a real harmony between God's Word and true Science, but few have
been privileged to see it.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=11521.0 ----------------

The scriptural explanation of how God created the heavens and the earth and how long it took and how long ago it was, is in absolute keeping with what science has found.  Absolutely.

Not that scientists are right about everything, but as long as they are sticking to their science, almost all scientists are honest. I'll tell you which science I've found where scientists are not honest.  The scientists like Stephen Austin and these guys who try to defend the 'young creation.'  Now I can show you where these people lie or distort or misrepresent. Why would they do that? Because the truth doesn't uphold their teaching, that's why.  When we get into the talk about Jesus Christ, I'm going to show that too... how people would distort and twist the scriptures and say, 'well the scriptures says this...'  They say no such thing. Why do they say that then? Because they have to say something to justify their heresy.  The truth won't justify it, so they have to lie.
v
The whole world of non-believers and let's specifically talk about the scientific community, the ones who've studied a good bit of the aspects of both sides of this thing.  What is one of the reasons they just flat-out reject the word of God?  Because of these two-faced, lying, hypocritical theologians, that's why. Like this guy who wrote me this email, like he had some vague idea of what he's talking about. He's not got a clue.

When somebody suggests to scientists, 'you know, you ought to obey the scriptures,' or 'you ought to believe the Bible.'  They reply, 'what? Do you really believe that God created this earth six thousand years ago, are you crazy?  Here's five thousand proofs... here's billions of tons of strata, all of them prove that the earth is very old.  You cannot account for five miles of sedimentary rocks which are laid down by water happening in one flood, in a year. Come on!  It's not even conceivable. It took millions and billions of years.'

(From conference notes)
So it is the Christian theologians and teachers that are causing God and His Word to be blasphemed in the world today.   They assume that what teachers teach about the Bible is true.  Maybe they never read a word of the Bible, but they know that theologians teach that God created the heavens and the earth six thousand years ago in six 24-hour periods. They know that that's what is taught and they know that it is foolish nonsense. So they turn their back on God.  Little do most of them know that the Scriptures are in total agreement with most of the findings of geologists, scientists, astronomers, etc.  It is very important that we know the truth on such vital subjects.
------------------------------------------------------------------

2008 Nashville Conference: The Bible and Science Agree 100%
1st half of Day 1:  http://youtu.be/-u6ds2-s3Yk
2nd half of Day 1: http://youtu.be/OgHBPT8nAHI
1st half of Day 2:  http://youtu.be/PszDw1lr9MY
2nd half of Day 2: http://youtu.be/z9E0p_zDjsY

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi bob,

I suppose I am in a unique position and perhaps this is partly why God raised me up as He did, stolen from babylon before I ever was tainted by her teachings and also trained in the studies of the natural world since I can remember. To what end I know not, perhaps for no more than to give me the unique experience necessary to conform me to His image.

I posted this in a discussion on facebook with some members here. It pertains to my understanding and lack of skepticism in scientific endeavors when the data is consistent amongst the various scientific disciplines and their experiments. Science isn't one man's understanding but the collective efforts of the human race to understand the natural (not spiritual) things of our existence.

Agreed but one thing I see among my brothers and sisters is that some of them fear or even despise science and all it entails because they were so deceived by the church that they conclude the wordly carnal godless men must also be deceiving us with their knowledge which would include science. Now God does call the wisdom of this world STUPIDITY with Him but it is WISDOM that He is addressing and not the stupdity and carnality of the world. So there is wisdom amongst mankind. The thing i wish my brethren would consider more than I think they do, is that it is the spiritual things of God that the natural man cannot receive. God never said the carnal man cannot receive the natural things. The natural man CAN receive natural things, just not the spiritual things. But studying this universe is a purely natural thing because its physical, like the age of the earth, antibiotics, drugs, physics, biology, chemistry, etc.. So I don't find a reason or need to be so anti science. But I know the spiritual things of God are only given to us by God so I am very careful to try the spirits and search the scriptures daily to see if those spiritual things are so. The reality of it is if science was so backwards and all wrong none of the things we enjoy today such as our phones, computers, medical advances, internet, electricity, cars, gps satilites, rockets etc.. etc... none of those things would work. But they do! The proof is in the pudding so to speak. So sure we can be skeptical of things but when 99% of the data says one thing, why should we not accept it? I say this in part because of the concern some of you expressed about my medical studies. God will keep me and teach me. In all things.

Maybe this will help you to see things differently.

Dennis makes a very valid observation as well.

Edit: Kat also points out important things and ray's study.

And let me just add that I see GREAT harmony between science and the scriptures. Mankind's understanding of the universe is finally catching up to Genesis. Only a few thousand years late!

In the end, all will know God and the truth. So I don't lose sleep over things like this . I'll be here for you either way as I know you are here for me. And if you should ever require my wordly learned scientificly governed medical training guided and planned by God then you can count on me without hesitation. Though we both know, no man has power over the spirit to retain it and that without Jesus we can do nothing, indeed we are all but grass and dust of the earth. God will save us.

God bless,
Alex

[John from Kentucky]

All the Scriptures are absolute truth.  However, some are not literally true.  Many Scriptures are allegories or stories that teach deep spiritual truths.  Jesus said His words are Spirit and they are Life.

Ray once said and wrote that some Scriptures are like Charley Brown stories.  They can be understood on different levels.  Children can read the story and understand on one level.  Adults can read the story and understand on another level.

I understand the chapter on Adam and Eve as being an allegory, or story that teaches great spiritual truths.  One clue that the story may be an allegory is that the chapter mentions a serpent that stands up and talks to the woman and she talks back; two trees, one tree is the Tree of Life, one tree is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; a flaming sword that turns every which way and guards access to the Tree of Life.  In the Book of Revelation we are taught Who is the Tree of Life.

I do not find any contradictions between True Science and God's Truth.

I do not want to offend anyone who believes the Scriptures are literally true.

The Spirit of God can lead all to His Truths regardless of one's current views or understanding of the Scriptures.

One of my favorite, "Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit says the LORD Almighty."

[cheekie3]

John from Kentucky -

Thanks for your post regarding absolute truth, literal true and allegorical truth.

All the Scriptures are absolute truth.  However, some are not literally true.  Many Scriptures are allegories or stories that teach deep spiritual truths.  Jesus said His words are Spirit and they are Life.

I will be interested to know what your, and others', understanding of the following Passage is:

Matthew 4:

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;

Is the above Passage literally true or is some of it literally true.

If only some of it is literally true, how can we be certain which aspects are literal and which are allegories.

Can this Passage be both literally true and a Parable.

I am curious, that is all - as we all know that Jesus taught in Parables.

To me, all the above Passage appears to be literal; yet we can wonder how did the devil take up Jesus to a very high mountain (e.g. did they both climb up the mountain), and is it possible to see all the kingdoms of the world (of around 30 AD) from a very high mountain.

Curious George.

[Kat]

Hi George, it sure is an interesting passage.

Matt 4:1  Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

The Spirit lead Him into the wilderness, as it was time before His ministry began, to be tried and tested. It was necessary for Him to go through this as a proving, that He would have first hand experience, so to speak. And it seems that those temptations He faced, gave the full range of possible worldly lusts.

Heb 4:15  For we do not have a High Priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus is God, so He needed to put Himself in a position or make Himself somewhat venerable, so He went into a secluded area alone and put Himself through a rather extreme process to get His flesh to a weakened state. Though not carnal, He was certainly effected by what happened to His flesh.

Matt 4:2  And after fasting forty days and forty nights, He was hungry.
v. 3  And the tempter came and said to him...

This was all certainly literal. I think most people could not survive being without food for 40 days, I also would think He was near actual physical collapse. So perfect time for Satan to move in... do remember Satan is a spirit being, he cannot be seen, he influences the mind/thinking.

http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html -----------

[Ray's reply]

Satan is a spirit being, seeing that he has been around for thousands of years. He is called a devil, serpent/snake, dragon, etc. We are not exactly sure what a dragon looks like, but supposedly it is in the reptile family as are snakes.

Nowhere that I can think of, did Satan ever appear visibly to anyone. Therefore his serpent/dragon qualities (or lack thereof) must be spiritual. Satan is a SPIRITUAL SNAKE. He has the secret, stealth qualities of a snake moving unseen in the dark. Although he is "like" [in certain characteristics] a roaring lion, he is not a lion, but "as" a lion he goes about seeking whom he may devour [Gk: 'swallow up' as in 'swallow a camel']. Spiritually devour/swallow.
---------------------------------------------

So Satan, who is so very cunning, right off the bat hits Jesus where he is the most physically weak, His extreme hunger. 

Matt 4:3  And the tempter came and said to Him, "If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread."

This would have been so easy for Him to do and would seem justifiable for Jesus in His condition, but He knew what was going on... this was a temptation involving the lust of the flesh (1John 2:16).

Matt 4:4  But He answered, "It is written, "'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
v. 5  Then the devil took Him to the holy city and set Him on the pinnacle of the temple
v. 6  and said to Him, "If you are the Son of God, throw Yourself down, for it is written, "'He will command His angels concerning You,' and "'On their hands they will bear You up, lest You strike your foot against a stone.'"

Since Jesus had just used Scripture to answer the first temptation, now Satan turned to Scripture as well with Psalms 91:11-12 to tempt Him, and a "IF you are the Son" slight. I do not believe that He literally went to the pinnacle of the temple, but as Jesus knew it well, it was brought to His mind in a vision.

Matt 4:7  Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

Satan surely could not get one over on Jesus, He knew exactly what Satan was trying to do and certainly could not best Jesus with His own Scripture. So He came right back with another Scripture in answer.

v. 8  Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
v. 9  And he said to Him, "All these I will give You, if You will fall down and worship me."

So here is the ultimate test... and I believe this was represented in a vision as the other must have been, as Satan influences the minds eye. I believe Satan showed/tempted Jesus with the idea that He did not really have to go through that horrible crucifixion and the humiliation of it all, that He could stop right there and could actually take over the world at once. He could start His reign at once and the salvation of the world as Satan seductively offered. Satan could not actually "give" that to Jesus, all is God's, but he certainly would be displaced if Jesus did.

This was a real temptation before Jesus and I guess He certainly could have done it... BUT the plan of salvation would be greatly altered/compromised, without 'His' resurrection as a firstfruit, wouldn't all the dead be lost? Satan tried to disguise it as a victory for Jesus, but in reality it would be his victory, as it was his most treacherous and devious hope of what could happen... Jesus was well aware of this!

Matt 4:10  Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.'"

Certainly this is a lot of speculation, it's my take on this passage, it may give you something to consider.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[John from Kentucky]

Hello George,

I believe the Scriptures you quoted are literally true.  The Scriptures tell us Satan is the god of this world and that he is the prince of the power of the air.  So I believe he has the power to do what those Scriptures say he did.

However, even with the power he had, and Jesus being in a weakened physical state, Jesus kicked Satan's sorry serpentine rear end all over the desert.  Which always makes me smile.

John

[Dave in Tenn]

Mat 4:8  Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9  And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.


"Can this Passage be both literally true and a Parable.

I am curious, that is all - as we all know that Jesus taught in Parables.

To me, all the above Passage appears to be literal; yet we can wonder how did the devil take up Jesus to a very high mountain (e.g. did they both climb up the mountain), and is it possible to see all the kingdoms of the world (of around 30 AD) from a very high mountain."

Knowing that no scripture is at all it's own interpretation, I am comfortable understanding that there is and was no physical mountain on the earth from which a man could "literally" see all the kingdoms of the earth of 30 AD.  The world known to Matthew and his contemporaries at the time was vast, and the world unknown to them at the time far more vast.

Compare this passage to what Paul wrote:

2Co 12:1  It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2Co 12:2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3  And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paul called his experiences "visions and revelations" of the Lord, yet in trying to describe it could not say whether he was "caught up" "in the body or out of the body".  Forget Literal and "allegory" for a moment.  It was that "real" to Paul.  Just because "visions" and "revelations" are "in the mind" does not make them "unreal".  It just makes them "visions and revelations".

After all, Jesus was in clear spiritual warfare.  Where does that take place?  The body may be anywhere, including encased in concrete at the bottom of a well--the mind is where it's at. 

Put those two (and an important side-note) together, and I can believe that the devil took Jesus to a physical high mountain and "showed Him" in vision all the Kingdoms of the world and their glory.  I can also believe the devil took Jesus to a "high mountain" in vision and revelation and showed Him all the Kingdoms of the world and their glory.  There are other "not-it's-own-interpretation" possibilities that I might also can believe.

The one I cannot believe is that the devil took Jesus to a single physical high mountain and, while there, literally showed Him literally all the physical Kingdoms of the World and all their literal/physical glory.

That said, the passage is TRUE, regardless of what (if any) parts are "literal".  THAT said, to dwell on the physical/literal possibilities to the ignoring of the Spiritual REALITIES/TRUTHS is not something I have any desire to do.  To be carnally minded is death.  To be spiritually minded is life and peace.       

 

[cheekie3]

Kat -

Thanks for posting this. It is food for thought.

With regards to this particular point:

So here is the ultimate test... and I believe this was represented in a vision as the other must have been, as Satan influences the minds eye. I believe Satan showed/tempted Jesus with the idea that He did not really have to go through that horrible crucifixion and the humiliation of it all, that He could stop right there and could actually take over the world at once. He could start His reign at once and the salvation of the world as Satan seductively offered. Satan could not actually "give" that to Jesus, all is God's, but he certainly would be displaced if Jesus did.

I have a query regarding Satan, as he is not God, and does not know the future; as this Scripture alludes to (as Satan must be one of the princes of this world:

I Corinthians 2:8: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Also, as Satan is the god of this world, he certainly could offer all the kingdoms of this world - as they are his.

It certainly makes sense if this was a vision in the minds eye.

Kind Regards.

George.

[cheekie3]

John from Kentucky -

Hello George,

I believe the Scriptures you quoted are literally true.  The Scriptures tell us Satan is the god of this world and that he is the prince of the power of the air.  So I believe he has the power to do what those Scriptures say he did.

However, even with the power he had, and Jesus being in a weakened physical state, Jesus kicked Satan's sorry serpentine rear end all over the desert.  Which always makes me smile.

John

So True.

I would like to know more about what this 'he is the prince of the power of the air' actually means though.

Kind Regards.

George.

[cheekie3]

Dave in Tenn -

Thank you for you post. It makes sense, especially this segment:

Paul called his experiences "visions and revelations" of the Lord, yet in trying to describe it could not say whether he was "caught up" "in the body or out of the body".  Forget Literal and "allegory" for a moment.  It was that "real" to Paul.  Just because "visions" and "revelations" are "in the mind" does not make them "unreal".  It just makes them "visions and revelations".

Kind Regards.

George.

[John from Kentucky]

John from Kentucky -

Hello George,

I believe the Scriptures you quoted are literally true.  The Scriptures tell us Satan is the god of this world and that he is the prince of the power of the air.  So I believe he has the power to do what those Scriptures say he did.

However, even with the power he had, and Jesus being in a weakened physical state, Jesus kicked Satan's sorry serpentine rear end all over the desert.  Which always makes me smile.

John

So True.

I would like to know more about what this 'he is the prince of the power of the air' actually means though.

Kind Regards.

George.

Hi George,

The phrase "prince of the power of the air" comes from Eph 2:2.

Job 1:18-19 may point you toward one aspect of that term.  May God guide your understanding.

John

[cheekie3]

John from Kentucky -

Thank you for your post:

Hi George,

The phrase "prince of the power of the air" comes from Eph 2:2.

Job 1:18-19 may point you toward one aspect of that term.  May God guide your understanding.

John

I will certainly seek His Face about Job 1:18-19 and the rest.

Kind Regards.

George.