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[cheekie3]

All -

I have been thinking a lot lately about the Scriptures regarding those in Authority:

1 Timothy 2:1-7 (KJV)
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Hebrews 13:17 (KJV)
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Romans 13:1-10 (KJV)
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 for he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Above all we are to obey and do His Commandments in Love.

When I observe those in authority, all I see is lies, deceit, corruption and all that is contrary to what Our Heavenly Father demands of us - yet we are commanded to obey those in authority.

Does this mean that we are without question to obey all IN GOVERNMENT that rule over us (that invariably are self seeking and corrupt).

I even struggle to understand who we are to obey in His Called Out Called Out (True) Church - as above each one of us is Christ and above Christ is Our Heavenly Father. So apart from obeying His Word (and His Commandments), Jesus Himself and Our Heavenly Father, I do not know who else in His True Church we are to obey. I do not recollect that John, Peter, James and Paul taught us to obey them.

If we are to Love and obey The Truth, how can we obey those that lord it over us in authority who have none of His Truth in them.

To me Hebrews 13:17 and Romans 13: 1-10 is all about His True Church; and those in authority in His True Church must be people - yet we are to obey God rather than mankind - and those in His True Church must invariably teach us to obey His Word - which brings us back to the authority levels in Scripture - women submit themselves to their husbands, and All True Believers are IN and under the authority of Christ Jesus, and Jesus is Placed First amongst all by Our Heavenly Father.

1 Timothy 2 (1-7) teaches us how we should pray for all, including those in authority (including the wicked and our enemies).

We are to resist the devil - yet Satan is the ruler of this world (and in authority over the rulers of darkness and wickedness), which include mankind in authority as kings and in government.

As practically everything in the world is contrary to what His True Church must adhere to, how can we obey these corrupt people ruled by Satan who must be Babylon the great - as Babylon the great cannot just be the false church.

Can anyone shed any Light on this please.

Thank You.

Kind Regards.

(Enquiring) George.

 

[rick]

Hi George,


But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain:


Gods people do not use swords but the authority over us do, ok, today they have guns but scripture says those who live by the sword will die by the sword and it's the same things with guns.

I agree most in authority are corrupt and many have become perverse but Scripture is clear because it does not say obey only if they are right with God but rather it say obey them in authority over you.

These in authority over us who are in office are there because God put them there so we must obey.

If these who are in authority over us are enemies of the cross remember God said to love your enemy. It's not so much about what they are doing as it is about what we are doing which is to obey our God.

All will be straightened out in the end but if you fight against them you'll be fighting against what God has ordained. So Love your neighbors as you do yourself and by doing this you'll fulfill the greatest law of God which is love.

It's better to pray for them than to complain about them.


God bless.

[cheekie3]

Rick -

Hi George,


But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain:


Gods people do not use swords but the authority over us do, ok, today they have guns but scripture says those who live by the sword will die by the sword and it's the same things with guns.

I agree most in authority are corrupt and many have become perverse but Scripture is clear because it does not say obey only if they are right with God but rather it say obey them in authority over you.

These in authority over us who are in office are there because God put them there so we must obey.

If these who are in authority over us are enemies of the cross remember God said to love your enemy. It's not so much about what they are doing as it is about what we are doing which is to obey our God.

All will be straightened out in the end but if you fight against them you'll be fighting against what God has ordained. So Love your neighbors as you do yourself and by doing this you'll fulfill the greatest law of God which is love.

It's better to pray for them than to complain about them.


God bless.

I wholeheartedly agree with your post.

I know that God Himself places those in authority.

Pharaoh was put in authority by God himself; as was Pilot - yet God himself wanted to free His People from Pharaoh.

My point is regarding the apparent contradictions (and I know that His Word does not contradict).

Let me try and make an example by way of an illustration:

Muhammad Ali (and I know he was a Muslim) refused those in authority who ordered him to go to war and kill those on a different land. He refused.

Did Muhammad Ali sin according to the New Testament Scriptures by not going to war.

I do know that what we are all asked to obey in the world, is always subtle, and difficult to get to the root cause - and if one proves the root cause, and it is contrary to His Word, how can one obey that which His Word instructs us not to obey (i.e. should a member of His Elect who is working in a hospital, where abortions are carried out, obey those in authority over them without question and be party to the abortion).

Does His Word really teach us to obey those in authority in this world, while at the same time ordering us to come out of her (Babylon the great) and not be party to her sins.

How can we come out of her (Babylon the great) and be in the world but not of the world, and still obey those in authority in the world (especially as the Elect should not be in Satan's kingdom).

(Still enquiring) George.

[rick]

Hi ,George

I understand your meaning but why complicate things ? We are commanded to obey those in authority until the laws they put out go to contrary to Gods law.

I agree all is corrupt and perverted but we cannot use their corruption as an excuse to disobey God.

It's Gods creation not ours, God knows what He is doing and if God tells up to obey these corrupt leaders they we obey them. I know it's not what you want to hear nor what I want to say but it's all of God and besides these corrupt leaders will also be brought into the family of God.

If you look at things from a carnal minded perspective the solution will be a carnal minded solution and not of the spirit of God solution .

How much harder will it be for them in the lake of fire ? God does say vengeance is mine meaning Gods not ours.

God bless.

[lareli]

Paul said in Romans that rulers are not a terror to good works but to evil.... Sounds like our modern day version of "if you're not doing anything wrong then you've got nothing to worry about"... Kind of ironic coming from Paul who a short time earlier was going house to house under the authority of the law and assaulting peaceful people, kids and women and throwing them in jail.... Not to mention Jesus Christ had just recently been beaten by those who rule and publicly executed by them.. All done by these rulers who are supposedly not a terror to good works.

I don't doubt that we are to submit to rulers even if we are being unfairly treated or persecuted... In deed it is to our benefit when we bare unjust persecution as if we are submitting to God Himself. My only point of poor understanding is why or how Paul of all people could write that rulers are not a terror to good but to evil. I just don't see that being true.

[rick]

Hi George,


I hear what your saying but did not Paul write under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit ?  Sure, it's frustrating , it's more like do as I say not as I do , it's the way of the world, the world God is in control of.

We are here to learn righteousness and to be humbled through and experience of good and evil so without these wicked rulers how would we learn?

It's hard to see all the suffering that all human beings go through including our leaders too. Remember pray for them do not curse.

[cheekie3]

Rick -

Hi ,George

I understand your meaning but why complicate things ? We are commanded to obey those in authority until the laws they put out go to contrary to Gods law.

I agree all is corrupt and perverted but we cannot use their corruption as an excuse to disobey God.

It's Gods creation not ours, God knows what He is doing and if God tells up to obey these corrupt leaders they we obey them. I know it's not what you want to hear nor what I want to say but it's all of God and besides these corrupt leaders will also be brought into the family of God.

If you look at things from a carnal minded perspective the solution will be a carnal minded solution and not of the spirit of God solution .

How much harder will it be for them in the lake of fire ? God does say vengeance is mine meaning Gods not ours.

God bless.

Thank you for your post.

I am currently looking at the whole 'in the world, but not of the world' issue to ensure I understand it fully and correctly.

Kind Regards.

George.

[cheekie3]

largeli -

Paul said in Romans that rulers are not a terror to good works but to evil.... Sounds like our modern day version of "if you're not doing anything wrong then you've got nothing to worry about"... Kind of ironic coming from Paul who a short time earlier was going house to house under the authority of the law and assaulting peaceful people, kids and women and throwing them in jail.... Not to mention Jesus Christ had just recently been beaten by those who rule and publicly executed by them.. All done by these rulers who are supposedly not a terror to good works.

I don't doubt that we are to submit to rulers even if we are being unfairly treated or persecuted... In deed it is to our benefit when we bare unjust persecution as if we are submitting to God Himself. My only point of poor understanding is why or how Paul of all people could write that rulers are not a terror to good but to evil. I just don't see that being true.

Thank you for your post.

I know that injustice is all around us; and I know about experiencing the knowledge of both good and evil. I know we must pray for those in authority - and forgive all.

Paul was best placed to understand both The Way and The World's Way (even though Paul served The World's Way in ignorance thinking he was doing The Lord's work) - as he fully experienced both - and knew The Truth of things.

My only point of poor understanding is why or how Paul of all people could write that rulers are not a terror to good but to evil. I just don't see that being true.

This is the point I am currently researching The Holy Scriptures for - as, to me, there is a big difference from suffering from being fired for your beliefs in The Lord (which obviously will always be opposed to the World's beliefs - as Satan rules over this world and its many spiritual and physical interlocking systems), and how can I submit to an authority (opposed to The Way, The Truth and The Life) to rule over me, when Christ only should be my Master.

Kind Regards.

George.

[cheekie3]

Rick -

Hi George,

I hear what your saying but did not Paul write under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit ?  Sure, it's frustrating , it's more like do as I say not as I do , it's the way of the world, the world God is in control of.

We are here to learn righteousness and to be humbled through and experience of good and evil so without these wicked rulers how would we learn?

It's hard to see all the suffering that all human beings go through including our leaders too. Remember pray for them do not curse.

Thank you for your post.

Again, I wholeheartedly agree with your Scriptural points.

The point I am currently researching The Scriptures on is:

How can I submit to an authority (opposed to The Way, The Truth and The Life) to rule over me, when Christ only should be my Master.

Kind Regards.

George.

[arion]

We are to obey legitimate authority over us not illegitimate authority and that is the crux.  Question.  Where in the scripture does it command us to obey illegitimate or illegal authority?  For example a wife is to submit herself to the authority of her husband.  She is under no compulsion to submit herself to the authority of another woman's husband.  Or, Satan will attempt to exert illegitimate authority over the believer and we know we are not to submit to him.  There is much illegitimate authority posing as true authority.

Another example.  In the U.S. our system is not set up to be a theocracy, a monarchy, police state, dictatorship or even a democracy.  We are set up to be a constitutional republic....not a straight democracy.  So what is considered legitimate authority in our system?  Under our system our rulers receive limited powers received upon oath to fealty to the U.S. constitution.  Any ruler who issues edicts that go against that constitution are [the edicts or laws] automatically null and void under our system.  Of course who among the leaders of our nation obeys and keeps their oath to that constitution?  Few.  Very few.  They pretty much all do whatever they want to do.  Many might say that the way the U.S. was founded was wrong because the settlers rebelled against King George.  But, King George was the King of England.  Did his legitimate authority [under God] really extend across the ocean to the new world?  He surely thought that it did.

Now to be sure if you take a stand and protest illegitimate authority and stand for what is right that will not protect you or I from the penalties that the 'authorities' are going to extract from you be it civil or criminal.  For myself with the time I spent as a officer in the U.S. Army in my former life I learned a lot about the constitution and contrasting legitimate vs illegitimate authority.  A officer can go against illegal and unconstitutional orders and do what is right but will probably pay a penalty for bucking his orders.  The Nazi's during WWII used the excuse that they were following orders and obeying the laws of their land and thereby attempted to absolve themselves from their crimes.  It didn't work for them in the end.

So to wrap it all up obeying civil authority isn't as cut and dry as one might think it to be.  On one hand we are not to be a law unto ourselves with everyone 'doing what is right in his own eyes' but on the other hand we are not under compunction to obey the various diktats of any officials or luminaries that decide to discard their limited powers under our constitution and take to themselves authority that they don't legitimately possess.  Not as cut and dried as it may appear at first glance.  Know what is right and do what is right but know that in doing so you may indeed pay a penalty as true and legitimate authority in this country [knowing that we have members here from many countries and systems of law] is getting as rare as hens teeth.

[cheekie3]

Arion -

We are to obey legitimate authority over us not illegitimate authority and that is the crux.  Question.  Where in the scripture does it command us to obey illegitimate or illegal authority?  For example a wife is to submit herself to the authority of her husband.  She is under no compulsion to submit herself to the authority of another woman's husband.  Or, Satan will attempt to exert illegitimate authority over the believer and we know we are not to submit to him.  There is much illegitimate authority posing as true authority.

Another example.  In the U.S. our system is not set up to be a theocracy, a monarchy, police state, dictatorship or even a democracy.  We are set up to be a constitutional republic....not a straight democracy.  So what is considered legitimate authority in our system?  Under our system our rulers receive limited powers received upon oath to fealty to the U.S. constitution.  Any ruler who issues edicts that go against that constitution are [the edicts or laws] automatically null and void under our system.  Of course who among the leaders of our nation obeys and keeps their oath to that constitution?  Few.  Very few.  They pretty much all do whatever they want to do.  Many might say that the way the U.S. was founded was wrong because the settlers rebelled against King George.  But, King George was the King of England.  Did his legitimate authority [under God] really extend across the ocean to the new world?  He surely thought that it did.

Now to be sure if you take a stand and protest illegitimate authority and stand for what is right that will not protect you or I from the penalties that the 'authorities' are going to extract from you be it civil or criminal.  For myself with the time I spent as a officer in the U.S. Army in my former life I learned a lot about the constitution and contrasting legitimate vs illegitimate authority.  A officer can go against illegal and unconstitutional orders and do what is right but will probably pay a penalty for bucking his orders.  The Nazi's during WWII used the excuse that they were following orders and obeying the laws of their land and thereby attempted to absolve themselves from their crimes.  It didn't work for them in the end.

So to wrap it all up obeying civil authority isn't as cut and dry as one might think it to be.  On one hand we are not to be a law unto ourselves with everyone 'doing what is right in his own eyes' but on the other hand we are not under compunction to obey the various diktats of any officials or luminaries that decide to discard their limited powers under our constitution and take to themselves authority that they don't legitimately possess.  Not as cut and dried as it may appear at first glance.  Know what is right and do what is right but know that in doing so you may indeed pay a penalty as true and legitimate authority in this country [knowing that we have members here from many countries and systems of law] is getting as rare as hens teeth.

Thank you for your post; your points are all valid.

I know digging for The Truth is not an easy task; and it costs us severely in living in His Truth.

These are the issues I am still researching The Scriptures on:

1. What are legitimate authorities if we are to be of the world but not of the world.

2. I do not believe that The Scriptures ask us to obey any in any authority - as we are commanded not to lord it over others as those in authority do, but to SERVE. There is a significant difference between SERVING and being obedient to authority. We are to Serve Him.

3. Satan is the legitimate authority of this world - but we are not of this world.

4. My understanding of any lawful government, is that the government is beneath the people, and the sole purpose of any government is to serve and protect its people - but unfortunately, most governments in the world today act and behave as if they are above the people, and therefore go beyond their governmental jurisdictions, treating the people as if they were infants that cannot manage their own affairs. He has His Own Government, it is the Called Out Called Out Ones, also known as His (True) Church.

5. We are not to blindly follow any orders, as we are to test every spirit, in order to ascertain whether it be of Our heavenly Father or otherwise. We are not to judge the world, as it has nothing to do with us - and He will judge the world in His Time of His Choosing.

6. We are to obey HIM at all times - as He says 'why do you say you love me and do not do what I say'. I cannot see how we can both obey His Commandments and obey those in authority at the same time. We have only One Master - Him.

7. We are not part of Satan's kingdom; and as He has conquered this world and He lives in us by His Spirit - the devil should have absolutely no jurisdiction over us - as Our Head is Christ and Satan is not equal to, or above Christ.

Kind Regards.

George.

[Kat]

I do know that what we are all asked to obey in the world, is always subtle, and difficult to get to the root cause - and if one proves the root cause, and it is contrary to His Word, how can one obey that which His Word instructs us not to obey (i.e. should a member of His Elect who is working in a hospital, where abortions are carried out, obey those in authority over them without question and be party to the abortion).

Does His Word really teach us to obey those in authority in this world, while at the same time ordering us to come out of her (Babylon the great) and not be party to her sins.

How can we come out of her (Babylon the great) and be in the world but not of the world, and still obey those in authority in the world (especially as the Elect should not be in Satan's kingdom).

(Still enquiring) George.

Hi George, it seems to me you are taking a general statement that Paul made and making very specific arguments against it. Paul was saying what the law was meant to be, not what corrupt people have turned it into. I believe laws are generally to keep the public at peace, so the higher ups can live in peace... but of course there is much corruption in every level of government, as in every aspect of society.

My only point of poor understanding is why or how Paul of all people could write that rulers are not a terror to good but to evil. I just don't see that being true.

I think Paul was teaching that believers should live in peace with the rulers/authorities of the land... as in we cannot rebel against the laws they have put in place. Paul is not trying to say the governments of this world are necessarily good, no, though he is saying most laws are generally designed to keep peace. Certainly there are those that abuse their authority, but that is not what Paul is focusing on. 

Rom 13:1  Let every soul be subject(G5293) to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
v. 2  Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

G5293
hupotassō - to subordinate; reflexively to obey: - be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.

If anything, believers are to be peacemakers and are to "lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence" (Tim 2:2) and are never to "repay no one evil for evil" (Rom 12:17), as in rebellion against the authorities "appointed by God."

Heb 12:14  Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:

Matt 5:9  Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.

We/believers cannot upsurge the powers that be or pick and choose which laws we will obey, because showing dissidence could lead to being arrested. I think Paul is warning us about being self-righteous against the rulers/authorities to the point of bringing on our own persecution/suffering.

1Peter 2:12  having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation.

We are to resist the devil - yet Satan is the ruler of this world (and in authority over the rulers of darkness and wickedness), which include mankind in authority as kings and in government.

Satan is only in power under God's sovereignty, it is God who has determined how this society will be and it is God who puts the circumstances in each and every one of our lives. Yes sometimes people suffer even when trying to do the right thing, that is part of the evil experience we will endure in this world. But we can always make things worse by the way we respond, we are now to be the meek of the world.

Titus 3:1  Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work,
v. 2  to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility (meekness) to all men.

1Peter 3:11  You must turn away from evil and do good; you must strive for peace with all your heart.
v. 12  For the Lord watches over the righteous and listens to their prayers; but he opposes those who do evil."
v. 13  Who will harm you if you are eager to do what is good?
v. 14  But even if you should suffer for doing what is right, how happy you are! Do not be afraid of anyone, and do not worry. (GNB)

As far as working where you are expected to do things that go against your conscious... then I would say that is not a good place for you to work. Surely you don't think it would be better to go against the establishment rather than change jobs?  You/we cannot change what this world is, but we need to learn how or where we can live in this world and be at peace.

Rom 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Kat,

Amen! Amen! Amen!

You summed up exactly what I was thinking.

I am in total agreement with you.

God bless,
Alex

[Dave in Tenn]

I strongly agree with what Kat wrote, too.  Especially the bit about self-righteousness.

Here's Paul on the matter, mentioning both the "world" and "us":

2Co 1:12  For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

(CLV)  For our boasting is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in holiness and sincerity of God, not in fleshly wisdom, but in the grace of God, we behaved ourselves in the world, yet more superabundantly toward you."

Ain't gonna let the old preacher that lives in my head "interpret" or explain that to me any more.


What did Jesus do, and how did that turn out?

I guess I might think differently, right or wrong, but I don't "expect" the world at large to follow the instruction of the Apostles.  I don't even "expect" any more the greater Church to obey the Sermon on the Mount!  He has placed us in the midst of a crooked and perverse Generation.  HIS was, (and in measurable ways, WORSE), and every generation since has been.  This is the way He works.  Many are called (out of the world).  Few are chosen (out of the many called).  As Ray said, the world may not have gotten worse, but the Church has.

To be in the world, and not OF it means, to me (in part, at least):   

Do good.  So far, there still isn't a law against the Fruit of the Spirit.  The only resistance I might expect in the world would be from religion or (to a lesser extent) ideology.  Maybe a few bad actors too.

Though we understand well (at least better now) that it is God working in us to both will and do His good pleasure, we still can't ignore that we are to WORK OUT our own salvation, with fear and trembling, knowing that.

     

[cheekie3]

Kat / Alex / Dave in Tenn -

Thank you for your posts; and your valuable insight.

I did not want to post this response; but I sensed I needed to do so. So here goes:

I have responded to similar responses at least three times on this topic - and it appears that you do not understand what I am researching The Scriptures on, and why.

I see no point in repeating what I have previously clarified.

He knows my heart and my intentions.

I will, as always, Trust Him.

I will continue to judge myself on all aspects, as He commands us all to do so.

For your information, I have since I started this post, confirmed from The Scriptures that 'some obeyed Paul' - so I deduce from this - that Scriptural references definitely refer to those in authority in His True Church, as Overseers or Elders in His True Church (i.e. John, James, Jude, Paul, Peter, etc). Ascertaining as to who these may be today however, is much more difficult, if not impossible - yet it should be possible by His Holy Spirit, for all of His Elect today, to be aware of all those in authority over them, under Christ, and in Christ.

I personally think, that perhaps, we should all focus on His Commandment 'not to love the world; and the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life' as this is how Satan rules those under his authority - by his acts of lying, deceiving and murder.

I always seek to know the root cause of all things - like, why are the politicians doing or saying that - what is their real aim - as I do not believe we can understand fully anything without knowing its root cause.

If we are all to have the Mind of Christ - we should all be like Minded.

My heart's desire is very simply, it is to please Him in all that I desire, think, say and do.

However, in the days that we live in (which I believe are the last days - although none of us know how long these last days will last), He has pre informed us that 'knowledge will abound'.

Is there any doubt, that today, we should have more knowledge of His Truth; as He has declared that He will reveal more, more, more, in the last days.

Paul was given His knowledge directly by Jesus Christ Himself through His Holy Spirit; and Paul did not seek any help from His Apostles - and only after many, many years, when Paul met Peter and the other Elders, did He confirm that what Paul was told was the same as that received supernaturally by Peter and the other Elders. Paul studied The Scriptures and interpreted them wrongly, until His eyes were opened by Jesus Christ who gave give True Knowledge - and those Saul persecuted were dumbfounded that Paul know taught The Way (of Christ) - yet they must have known it is only possible if God gave Paul these revelations.

I often wonder why we do not all, personally, get more direct revelation from Him that is confirmed by His Scriptural witnesses.
 
Sometimes I feel like Job, whose self proclaimed three (3) friends accused him of all sorts of things, wrongly on all counts - and He sent a young man to reprimand his so called friends who spoke not wisdom, but foolishness without any true knowledge of God.

Perhaps, this is one of those topics, that Peter wrote about regarding some of Paul's Epistles (letters); in that, some things, are very hard to understand.

I obey His Commandment not to quit; and continue to ask Him to reveal His Truths as He said He would, knock on His Door (Jesus Christ), and continue seeking His Truths at all times.

Ray said of Himself, many, many, times, that he was like a bulldog - asking God to show him what he was looking for - and Ray did not give up until God gave him what he was looking for.

Kind Regards.

George.
 

[Dave in Tenn]

When I observe those in authority, all I see is lies, deceit, corruption and all that is contrary to what Our Heavenly Father demands of us - yet we are commanded to obey those in authority.

George, maybe that is all you see, but that is not all I see.

Does this mean that we are without question to obey all IN GOVERNMENT that rule over us (that invariably are self seeking and corrupt).

That's a hypothetical question, first.  ALL in government are not trying to RULE over me.  In this country, at least, we have the rule of law.  Justice is imperfect and often hard to come by, but in the end, that's what "RULES" us--and them too.  Beyond that, many of those being "ruled" are also self-serving and corrupt, though I wouldn't say "invariably" in either case.     

I even struggle to understand who we are to obey in His Called Out Called Out (True) Church - as above each one of us is Christ and above Christ is Our Heavenly Father. So apart from obeying His Word (and His Commandments), Jesus Himself and Our Heavenly Father, I do not know who else in His True Church we are to obey. I do not recollect that John, Peter, James and Paul taught us to obey them.


That last bit is an odd statement.  I might have missed the point, but you seemed to be starting with the idea that THESE GUYS were the ones WE should be obeying.

For the rest of it, I understand there are "places" even on the web where you can "submit" to "rulers" claiming to be representing the "True Church", if that's your bag.  It's not mine.  Since there are, it's axiomatic that there are also some who present themselves as "rulers" of the "True Church".  Most I've seen who have gone that way are lost, lost, lost.   

Paul said "Do as I do."  All the writers gave instruction.  Maybe that isn't saying "OBEY", but it surely was written with the intention that some would.

As for Jesus being the head and Us under Him, I have no doubt.  That is not only the way it SHOULD BE, that is the way it IS, in my estimation.  His Kingdom, however, is Spiritual.  Many are called, few chosen.

And from you last post:  I often wonder why we do not all, personally, get more direct revelation from Him that is confirmed by His Scriptural witnesses.

George, all my life 'became' a direct revelation from Him confirmed by Scripture when I looked back over it with these eyes.  Factoids, opinions about one passage or another, depth of vision, etc. are gained (and sometimes lost) by study and by "the abundance of council".  Otherwise, we tend to think WE are the 'head' while giving lip-service to HIM being the head.

I'll never be Peter, Paul, James or John.  Not in this life.  I'll always be in their "audience".  I'll either understand and do what they said, or I won't.  Either way, I am still "in the scripture".

Gotta run, or I'll be late for work.
     

[cheekie3]

Dave in Tenn -

When I observe those in authority, all I see is lies, deceit, corruption and all that is contrary to what Our Heavenly Father demands of us - yet we are commanded to obey those in authority.

George, maybe that is all you see, but that is not all I see.

Does this mean that we are without question to obey all IN GOVERNMENT that rule over us (that invariably are self seeking and corrupt).

That's a hypothetical question, first.  ALL in government are not trying to RULE over me.  In this country, at least, we have the rule of law.  Justice is imperfect and often hard to come by, but in the end, that's what "RULES" us--and them too.  Beyond that, many of those being "ruled" are also self-serving and corrupt, though I wouldn't say "invariably" in either case.     

I even struggle to understand who we are to obey in His Called Out Called Out (True) Church - as above each one of us is Christ and above Christ is Our Heavenly Father. So apart from obeying His Word (and His Commandments), Jesus Himself and Our Heavenly Father, I do not know who else in His True Church we are to obey. I do not recollect that John, Peter, James and Paul taught us to obey them.


That last bit is an odd statement.  I might have missed the point, but you seemed to be starting with the idea that THESE GUYS were the ones WE should be obeying.

For the rest of it, I understand there are "places" even on the web where you can "submit" to "rulers" claiming to be representing the "True Church", if that's your bag.  It's not mine.  Since there are, it's axiomatic that there are also some who present themselves as "rulers" of the "True Church".  Most I've seen who have gone that way are lost, lost, lost.   

Paul said "Do as I do."  All the writers gave instruction.  Maybe that isn't saying "OBEY", but it surely was written with the intention that some would.

As for Jesus being the head and Us under Him, I have no doubt.  That is not only the way it SHOULD BE, that is the way it IS, in my estimation.  His Kingdom, however, is Spiritual.  Many are called, few chosen.

And from you last post:  I often wonder why we do not all, personally, get more direct revelation from Him that is confirmed by His Scriptural witnesses.

George, all my life 'became' a direct revelation from Him confirmed by Scripture when I looked back over it with these eyes.  Factoids, opinions about one passage or another, depth of vision, etc. are gained (and sometimes lost) by study and by "the abundance of council".  Otherwise, we tend to think WE are the 'head' while giving lip-service to HIM being the head.

I'll never be Peter, Paul, James or John.  Not in this life.  I'll always be in their "audience".  I'll either understand and do what they said, or I won't.  Either way, I am still "in the scripture".

Gotta run, or I'll be late for work.
     

Thank you for your post; and sharing your experiences.

I think it best, if I give this topic a rest now - and I am sure He will confirm or otherwise, that which I need to know (or need not to know).

Kind Regards.

George.

[rick]

Hi George,

There was a time not long ago I believed as you do about obeying those in authority over us , of course the ramifications of not obeying one would come to regret.

We are all sinners everyone one of us and you know these politicians did not fall out of the sky they come from American family's and they are sinners just like the rest of us.

I know there are politicians who try their best to do what's right but even these are up against the Satanic force that is apparent throughout our government.

I don't believe all politicians are corrupt but I agree there are some that are. I ask myself what kind of politician would I make, would I give in to the temptations of being wealthy and powerful  ?

I would hope not but until I do their job I really don't know if I would be any better. We must also keep in mind the things we learned here, such things like it's not in man to direct his own footsteps and that every choice we make has a cause behind it.

You know God has a plan and His plan is being achieved through all the circumstances that causes all of us to walk the path He directs each and every person that ever existed . We do not have free will so everyone will always follow the dictates of the supreme ruler of the universe .

I say pray for those in authority over us because that is the right thing to do but in doing so if your prayers are not according to Gods plan then that pray won't be answered so then we need to get in line with Gods plan and not ours .

God bless.

[cheekie3]

Rick -

Hi George,

There was a time not long ago I believed as you do about obeying those in authority over us , of course the ramifications of not obeying one would come to regret.

We are all sinners everyone one of us and you know these politicians did not fall out of the sky they come from American family's and they are sinners just like the rest of us.

I know there are politicians who try their best to do what's right but even these are up against the Satanic force that is apparent throughout our government.

I don't believe all politicians are corrupt but I agree there are some that are. I ask myself what kind of politician would I make, would I give in to the temptations of being wealthy and powerful  ?

I would hope not but until I do their job I really don't know if I would be any better. We must also keep in mind the things we learned here, such things like it's not in man to direct his own footsteps and that every choice we make has a cause behind it.

You know God has a plan and His plan is being achieved through all the circumstances that causes all of us to walk the path He directs each and every person that ever existed . We do not have free will so everyone will always follow the dictates of the supreme ruler of the universe .

I say pray for those in authority over us because that is the right thing to do but in doing so if your prayers are not according to Gods plan then that pray won't be answered so then we need to get in line with Gods plan and not ours .

God bless.

Thank you for your post; and your insightful comments - which I agree with (especially how we should pray for all).

I am leaving this with The Lord to direct me further.

Kind Regards.

George.