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Casting lots

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Joel:
The way I see it, we should do as we are lead.
Gideon put out the fleece before God.
How many scriptures are there in support of casting lots?
And how many are there against casting lots?

Joel

lostANDfound:
I agree Jeff with what you are saying about predetermination, but that's not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about seeking to do right.  My desire in that moment to know the truth and do right led me to the predetermined path I took. True, it was all of God, and it couldn't have been any other way. But are you suggesting we just follow our noses and not question anything? Maybe I'm not following you properly.  You said "asking for direction seems meaningless".  I think there might be a gap in your understanding about predetermination. 
Remember Ray talking about the difference between Gods stated will which we all go against, and His ultimate will or intention which no one ever goes against?  I wanted to do his 'stated will' in that moment and in the process I inevitably ended up following his intention as we all do.  We don't need to go on about that one situation, there are any number of times in ones life when one has a desire to do right but they aren't sure what 'right' is in that situation.  Like Alex's post about giving money to people he hardly knows, for example.  Whatever he ends up doing is already predetermined, that's true, but he still has to have the experience of wrestling with the decision.  And that experience is serving a purpose for him somehow.  We struggle and wonder and the direction we take might feel very random or very deliberated, but that process of deciding is not to be shrugged off once we have the knowledge of Gods predetermination.
Everyone feel free to correct me if I have this mixed up, as I know you will happily do!

Kat:

--- Quote from: Jeff on June 28, 2016, 01:29:36 AM ---I mean no disrespect.  I only mean to say that it doesn't matter whether we turn right or left, we can only go in the direction God has already predetermined.  God never changes, and he never changes his mind.  Our steps are laid out in front of us, and while we're given choices, the outcome will always be what God intends.

Jeremiah 29:11 is just one of many encouragements to understanding his will in our lives:

"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope."

Nothing we can do, or choose, will change God's plan, and that includes the calamity we might face.

Isaiah 45:7 "The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these."

What is about to happen has already happened.
--- End quote ---

Jeff, God is sovereign, knows the end from the beginning, but we do not. He has created this world for us to have the experience of life, learning through this experience. All the circumstances we encounter we don't know the future outcome, so we have to think, reason and make decisions, which develops character, good or bad, but we are becoming unique individuals because of it. That's what this life is about, bringing beings into existence and giving us this physical opportunity to live and learn and developing individuality... though all we're similar as in human, but there are many differences in each of us.

Yes God is in control, I mean He has all the power, without Him there is nothing, if He didn't bring it about it wouldn't happen. But He is making us so much more than puppets or pawns in His hands, that's what is so incredible and beautiful about all this. What He is doing is making us as thinking reasoning creatures, we weigh the options and make decisions, develop knowledge, gain understanding, create memories and personality. Though we do not have free will (an impossibility as God has all power), yet we still have a sense of freedom! The whole world thinks they have free will, because God has designed this creation so intricate and complex that we are unaware of all the millions of unseen causes at work around us... so we live our lives and do not feel every move is caused.

I guess only when you come to the knowledge of the truth and realize what God's sovereignty really is, that this can cause you distress and unhappy about the condition of the world right now. It's interesting that God has blinded all but a very few to this knowledge in this age, in His wisdom He knows this is a very hard thing to understand... well again the individuality, as I see it is very hard for come to come to terms with this, but it is not for me.

In the next age God we will have the next phase of His plan, I think we will see how truly remarkable His grace and justice will be at setting things right. But we do have to trust/believe that our God is capable of that...

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Jeff:

--- Quote from: lostANDfound on June 28, 2016, 02:21:31 AM ---I agree Jeff with what you are saying about predetermination, but that's not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about seeking to do right.  My desire in that moment to know the truth and do right led me to the predetermined path I took. True, it was all of God, and it couldn't have been any other way. But are you suggesting we just follow our noses and not question anything? Maybe I'm not following you properly.  You said "asking for direction seems meaningless".  I think there might be a gap in your understanding about predetermination. 
Remember Ray talking about the difference between Gods stated will which we all go against, and His ultimate will or intention which no one ever goes against?  I wanted to do his 'stated will' in that moment and in the process I inevitably ended up following his intention as we all do.  We don't need to go on about that one situation, there are any number of times in ones life when one has a desire to do right but they aren't sure what 'right' is in that situation.  Like Alex's post about giving money to people he hardly knows, for example.  Whatever he ends up doing is already predetermined, that's true, but he still has to have the experience of wrestling with the decision.  And that experience is serving a purpose for him somehow.  We struggle and wonder and the direction we take might feel very random or very deliberated, but that process of deciding is not to be shrugged off once we have the knowledge of Gods predetermination.
Everyone feel free to correct me if I have this mixed up, as I know you will happily do!

--- End quote ---

I believe it's true that we have a responsibility to act and move forward while seeking God.  God wants a relationship with us but I also think it can be very simple, or very complicated, depending on how he created us. What else can we do except step out as best we can? We don't have many options other than to learn, live, and act.

Psalm 51:16–17 "For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering.  The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise."

I'm sorry if I didn't understand what you wrote, but I think I have a better understanding of your heart, now. This medium of communicating is a process that unfolds slowly.

Obedience is love, as Ray has taught the Scriptures, and that seems to be your desire, and I'm no one to say differently, and never meant to.

I struggle with "stated will" versus "ultimate will". It's difficult for me to separate the two, but I'll keep working at it.

I think Alex's example is straight forward, and easy to identify.  Your struggle seemed more complex on the surface, but I would never question your faith, or motives.  I was just reflecting on the less complex idea of God's total sovereignty.  The nuances that he brings to each of us, uniquely, are something else entirely.

Dave in Tenn:
Actually, I love your story.

Pro 16:33  The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.  That doesn't read like a commandment to cast lots to me, but a piece of information to be discerned Spiritually.  The example of the 11 choosing the 12th can well be seen the same way.  They could just as easily have chosen candidates and prayerfully considered all their options before voting.  They could have done it some other way.  Every decision is from the Lord.

Ah, but not every decision from the Lord is the INTENTION of the Lord.  He hardened Pharaoh's heart even when the poor King wanted to let His people go.  The Lord decides a lot of things that cause people to go against His stated will, but even those decisions ultimately result in the fulfilling of His intention.  He gets what He wants and by any means He chooses.

What "casting lots" seems to do is put the results firmly in the hands of God, in a symbolic, physical manner.    You know how people can get if their "candidate" or "choice" isn't the one taken.  With that fullness of wisdom gained, then "chance" and "circumstance" to the carnal mind becomes faith and freedom to the spiritual mind.   

One thing is for sure--Matthias didn't rise up and declare himself be be Judas' replacement.   :D  And I'm glad the "right" slip was pulled in your case, but I can't help but think since it WAS your "time" you would have disobeyed the "wrong" slip.     

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