What should making disciples look like today?
Matt 28:19
"19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Spurious Passage, not authentic, the making disciples part nor baptizing in name of the trinity--Father, Son, holy spirit.
Do you have a second witness?
No not off the top of my head I can't think of a second passage.. But since you said this passage is not authentic, I take it you don't believe there is a second passage?
So what does it mean when there's not a second witness? Does that mean it's not true or that it should be taken out or disregarded?
I'm not clear on what the whole second witness thing means.. I always thought that was in reference to when one person accuses another person and the judge should not condemn a person based on just one persons testimony.. isn't the bible filled with statements that are not necessarily repeated again? One gospel says that both men on the crosses next to Christ hurled insults at Him.. Not only is there not a second witness to this (to my knowledge) but there is a witness that says one of the men on the cross next to Him asked Him to remember him. As far as I know there aren't second witnesses to these so should we not accept either of these as truth?
Hi Largeli,
Jesse provided some good information. Here are the scriptures regarding the witnesses;
2 Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own explanation.
1 Corinthians 2:12-15 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word (doctrine) may be established.
2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
The scriptures are the witnesses because they are who testify of God and in their multitude their is safety!
Proverbs 11:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.
Proverbs 24:6 For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is safety.
Every word and doctrine we believe is testified to by the cloud of witnesses, the multitude of counselors, the two anointed ones who stand before the Lord of all the earth. It must be or it is not truth.
Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Zechariah 4:11-14
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
Jesus' words are spirit and to understand spirit you need to compare spiritual with spiritual. And to compare something with something else you need those two witnesses.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Lastly, what you establish as doctrine cannot contradict the other truths of scripture (established in the mouth of two or three witnesses) because the Sum of God's Word is truth.
Psa 119:160 The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever.
In regards to your Matthew post. There is good evidence Matthew was originally written in Hebrew even though the oldest intact copies we have left are greek. There are many early christian's who are quoted as referencing this original hebrew work by the apostle Matthew.
Its likely that Matthew 28:19 was inserted along with some of the other verses regarding the trinity in a translation of the original hebrew to greek early on. The earliest copy of the hebrew matthew we have dates around 1300 BC but in it, this specific verse, does not contain the 'making of disciples' nor the trinity reference. The problem with this hebrew copy is we can't prove its a copy of the original hebrew gospel of matthew the apostle wrote though some scholars believe this to be true for good reason. All the greek versions, to my knowledge, contain the verse you cited as you quoted it so it won't appear as spurious by Professor Tindall in his work of spurious passages.
The closest witness I can think of to the one in Matthew is probably much more like what the original apostle had penned himself;
Mark 16:15-16
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
God bless,
Alex