bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Need Account Help?  Email bibletruths.forum@gmail.com   

Forgotten password reminders does not work. Contact the email above and state what you want your password changed to. (it must be at least 8 characters)

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: foreknowledge or pre-ordained  (Read 2042 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

pg-91

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 45
foreknowledge or pre-ordained
« on: July 16, 2016, 01:08:17 PM »

I was just reading through Ray's e-mails on free will, and found this topic: http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3815.0.html. Here Ray said there is a difference between God foreknowing and pre-ordaining something, but I don't understand it. In the Lake of Fire series 15 part C after the question: Can you handle the truth, he wrote that God causes all things and the word "allow" is just a created solution by theologians. I would be interested about your thoughts, on this topic.

Pg
Logged

Rick

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 920
Re: foreknowledge or pre-ordained
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2016, 03:12:35 PM »

Hi pg 91

It's my understanding that we are sinning machine and God knows the ends from the beginning and so God has foreknowledge of what any one person will do but when God preordained something it has to do with good works.

God doesn't preordaine a man or women to do evil or something wicked. So God preordaine us for good works.


Hope that helps .


God bless.

Logged
To every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven.

pg-91

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 45
Re: foreknowledge or pre-ordained
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2016, 03:34:14 PM »

Hi pg 91

It's my understanding that we are sinning machine and God knows the ends from the beginning and so God has foreknowledge of what any one person will do but when God preordained something it has to do with good works.

God doesn't preordaine a man or women to do evil or something wicked. So God preordaine us for good works.


Hope that helps .



God bless.

Hi Rick,

What I don't understand in your answer also, that God has foreknowledge of what every person will do and no one can do differently, so we couldn't "avoid" neither good nor bad works, no? Here I have the difficulty to understand why is the word pre-ordained only for good works.

Pg
Logged

lilitalienboi16

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1870
Re: foreknowledge or pre-ordained
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2016, 03:46:49 PM »

God preordained the election and our good works. He doesn't need to preordained rapists and murders and all sorts of sinning because man volunteers for these acts with little outside influence since he is subject to vanity and was created with a weak heart (Foreknowledge). We need God to change us though (Predestination).
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 04:09:42 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
Logged
1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Kat

  • Guest
Re: foreknowledge or pre-ordained
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2016, 04:03:18 PM »


Hi pg, this certainly is not an easy thing to grasp as we get questions concerning this all the time. The way I have come to see it is God is the source of all power and by His omnipotent power He is sovereign and He has absolute control... by His power all things consist as they do (Col 1:17). God has already created and designed the world and us the way we are and put all the laws into effect that govern it/us, so God does not makes us do the things that we do, He doesn't need to because in His foreknowledge of what/how He has created this world to be He knows exactly how every single minute detail of every single thing will happen... He designed it all to do exact what it's doing.

So all that being said He is responsible, He has predestinated everything from the beginning to play out exactly as it is doing, so He does not need to step in at any point, everything is precisely working according to His plan and design.

Here is an email that should help more with this.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2354.0.html ----

Dear Whirlwind:

You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?"  It is BOTH.  Listen:  God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE.  That's it. That's all there is to it.  That IS the principle. That IS the Truth.  That IS what the Bible teaches.  It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices."  You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation.  It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."

I hardly know what else to tell you.  God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams.  They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.  So then we don't make choices, right?  NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES.  It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see.  Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED.  And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that?  He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.

So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS?  Well, does He?  Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls?  That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will.  They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right?  Wrong, wrong, wrong!  Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them.  He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things.  And who created the Devil?  That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things.  Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money.  God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT.  They volunteer with little outside influence.  God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak.  Eve couldn't help but sin.  God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.

I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it.  Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!

God be with you,

Ray
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 12:04:15 AM by Kat »
Logged

Flanagan

  • Guest
Re: foreknowledge or pre-ordained
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2016, 07:15:23 PM »

good question PG-91,  It is a rather difficult topic to understand. When I'm having a dilemma over something I just figure that in time Jesus will help me to see clearly. As long as I keep studying the Scriptures and keep trying to do what's right all my questions will eventually get answered.
It didn't take long for the Apostle Paul to have his will completely turned upside down by the Lord.
 All the Lord's love and strength to you.
Logged

pg-91

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 45
Re: foreknowledge or pre-ordained
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2016, 08:29:40 PM »

Thank you Kat,lilitalienboi16 and Flanagan for your thoughts. Kat, I also read that e-mail from Ray which you copied here, and of course I don't say that God forces or directly causes men raping or stealing. Now, I guess I started to understand the difference between pre-ordained and foreknowledge. Recently, my understanding on this topic correlates with my feelings of guilt. When I read and believe that God is responsible and man is accountable it is always better, but when I read that man makes his choices and is a sinning machine with weak heart its worse. Do you think its normal?
Logged

Dave in Tenn

  • Administrator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4141
    • FaceBook David Sanderson
Re: foreknowledge or pre-ordained
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2016, 09:45:09 PM »

It probably is "normal" at some point in most lives.  For me, by the time I stumbled onto B-T, I already knew I was a sinning machine created with a weak heart.  It was hardly a new 'revelation'...I just didn't know it was 'scripture'.  It was simply "true" by my own experiences.  And I'd made my "peace" with that already, though I did not have the influence of God on my heart in anything approaching something that made me want to be "godly".  We all are where we are. 
Logged
Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

octoberose

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 462
Re: foreknowledge or pre-ordained
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2016, 02:43:17 AM »

"I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it.  Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!"

I just love that from Ray. So Ray,  so true.

What I do know about this subject is that those whose heart are hardened and who have no heart for God have not been Drawn to God. God just hasn't drawn (dragged) that person to the truth. So they keep on doing what their human hearts lead them to do...  And we just don't get to say, "Why did you make me thus?" Oh, I ask Him  but He rarely clues me in.
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: foreknowledge or pre-ordained
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2016, 12:09:42 PM »

Thank you Kat,lilitalienboi16 and Flanagan for your thoughts. Kat, I also read that e-mail from Ray which you copied here, and of course I don't say that God forces or directly causes men raping or stealing. Now, I guess I started to understand the difference between pre-ordained and foreknowledge. Recently, my understanding on this topic correlates with my feelings of guilt. When I read and believe that God is responsible and man is accountable it is always better, but when I read that man makes his choices and is a sinning machine with weak heart its worse. Do you think its normal?

When you begin to comprend that God is responsible because He has design this world and all the vast amount of intricate circumstances that operate to make all the events that exist happen... and He has also designed us, each completely unique because of all the vast amount of things that come to play to make us who we are. It's mind boggling to realize that everything happening in this world is interwoven, cause and effect down to the tiniest thing that brings about all the exact circumstances that happen, that's sovereignty, that's our God. We are really extra ordinary and incrediblly amazing creatures, by design, with feelings that help us deal with things. Guilt is one of those feelings that helps us recognize wrong behavior, Scripture even speaks of "being seared in their own conscience," (1Tim 4:2) which is certainly not a good thing. So guilt seems to be a necessary function that makes us aware of our sinful behavior. Unless we become seared to the point that we no longer feel remorse and I would think those will require a great degree correction in the lake of fire.

We are given a mind that thinks, reasons and can make decisions/choices and operate by the thousands of causes that are interacting together with everything else that happens around us. As it is we are not really aware of all this masterfully crafted circumstances/causes that are happening and that's why it is so easy to believe we have a free will. Certainly not free, but we are designed to weigh the options and make decisions that we, of our own minds, will to do, right or wrong, therefore accountable.

We are so use to thinking as if we are a god unto ourself, making decisions to determine our own fate... God is far too wise to leave our fate in our own carnal and selfish hands. This is all being worked out as it must be, and as we gain more and more knowledge of the truth we begin ito comprehend just how wonderful our God really is. Just wanted to add a little more to this discussion.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 10:11:25 AM by Kat »
Logged

dave

  • Guest
Re: foreknowledge or pre-ordained
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2016, 05:38:58 PM »

lilitalienboi16, Kat, Dave in Tenn.  :)
Logged

lostANDfound

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 101
Re: foreknowledge or pre-ordained
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2016, 07:26:25 PM »

I think the really hard part to understand is that even though we are carnal and foolish and weak, we would endanger ourselves to stop little girls from being raped, (since we're using this example), but most of the time we simply don't have the power to stop it.  But we know God does have that power, and does not stop little girls from being raped.  How are we to reconcile this with the foundational truth that God is love?
We know that surgeons must slice and cut and cause pain and make a mess of blood to bring healing.  It's necessary, it's good, and the end result is wonderful.  We know that muscles are formed by effort and pain and the breaking down and rebuilding of fibres.  There are countless analogies, but when we talk about these monumental concepts of life and creation, it gets very difficult to sort. Our minds are too small to comprehend His ways. 
We, who have had a taste of the "Depths of God", we should be well qualified to see that He is more than capable of phenomenal surprise plot twists at just the right time.  I don't claim to understand the mystery, but I rest in this. 


   
Logged
Learning, learning.  Ever so slowly.

pg-91

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 45
Re: foreknowledge or pre-ordained
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2016, 07:23:27 PM »

Thank you everyone for the replies!
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.058 seconds with 27 queries.