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[rick]

We all start off our spritual Journey with everything but the truth , B.T. is 180 degrees in truth from Cristendon but sometimes I feel like a spritual yo-yo.

Once I felt I had free will , in control of my own destiny and that was fine by me except when it came to God and Christendon, you know good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell and its we who are responsible for our own destiny , ouch, cause within that belief system I knew where I was heading for at death which really bothered me. And why shouldn't it.

Today I understand nothing could be futher from the truth than that sort of belief but now for sometime I've come to believe in the sovereignty of God and no sovereignty for me. God is in full control of everything but today I been thinking maybe not .

Sure God is sovereign but today it occurred to me that maybe God gave me some freedom to do as I want . Now we know regardless that Gods laws govern all of His creation and that no one can live outside the laws of God but within this realm of Gods laws maybe He gave us some kind of freedom.

God does not ordain sin God hates sin and God does not approve of sin nor does God tempt anyone to sin and so for this cause God gave us freedom to do as we please.

Sure God in His foreknowledge knows what we will do but He's not telling us to do it , He's not forcing us to do anything we don't want to do , so maybe He has no control over somethings we do.  ( correction) no control by His choice according to His counsel.

I wonder if it's like that within the law of righteousness , although He has ordained us for good works and without God ordaining us for good works can anyone do good? I know some people who don't believe in God at all at least they claim they don't but as much as I can tell these people do good things for other people.

Today I feel like a spiritual yo - Yo .


God bless and any help with this mess is welcome.

[acomplishedartis]

I think maybe you are just messing with words,

In all your speech if you change the word "freedom" for "limitations" everything will make more sense to you. I believe.

Also to say that God has no control over some things is not very smart. because He can see (and planned everything) from the beginning to the end. And we DON'T. And then, what seems like good works in our eyes might not be as good in God's eyes...

[rick]

Hi Moises,

It's good to see your back again. I'm just following through with some thoughts I had and want to see where it leads.

I do believe God is sovereign but can't God be sovereign while at the same time giving His creatures some freedom to do as they please?

Let me rephrase my new found understanding which may or may not be right, ok let's say I have a young child and a fenced in yard and I say to my child I have a few rules but outside of that do as you please.

So let's say I placed in my yard a sand box a swing set and maybe a real cool looking fort for my  child . So my child decides what he will do and what he will play with , sure he plays within the confines of the yard but makes his own choice according to what he wants and I never told him what to play with or where to go within the confines of the yard.

God bless.

[Extol]

Hi Moises,

It's good to see your back again. I'm just following through with some thoughts I had and want to see where it leads.

I do believe God is sovereign but can't God be sovereign while at the same time giving His creatures some freedom to do as they please?

Let me rephrase my new found understanding which may or may not be right, ok let's say I have a young child and a fenced in yard and I say to my child I  few rules but outside of that do as you please.

So let's say I placed in my yard a sand box a swing set and maybe a real cool looking fort for my  child . So my child decides what he will do and what he will play with , sure he plays within the confines of the yard but makes his own choice according to what he wants and I never told him what to play with or where to go within the confines of the yard.

God bless.

Hi Rick,

In response to the words I've highlighted above: I don't think there can be freedom if you've confined the child to the yard. It's a contradiction. Some definitions of free:

-not under the control or in the power of another
-not physically restrained, obstructed, or fixed; unimpeded
-not determined by anything beyond its own nature or being
-without restriction

If you've confined the child in a small space like a yard, the child's situation cannot be described with any of the above definitions. The child is not a robot whose every move you are controlling, but he is very much under your power. He does not have "freedom to do as he pleases" if sand box and fort are the only two options. If it's not an option to play across the street, or go to the park, or go out for ice cream, and he wants to do any of those things, he doesn't have freedom to do as he pleases.

[rick]

Hi Extol,

My description is just the setting the child is 2 years of age so can't let him go across the street but what I wanted to focus on is the child's choice.

I'm not taking about Physical freedom but freedom of thought and choice , so let's say there are some awesome toys I placed in the sand box that's the cause ok and in my foreknowledge I know he's going for the sand box but it's his choice to go to the sandbox but he could of went to the cool looking fort but I knew that too but the child is operating under the influence of his own liking so he's free in that respect to do as he pleases.

God bless.

[Dave in Tenn]

There's still a "cause" for your child to decide what to play with in the yard.  It's not some hard-to-fathom "miracle" he does what he's "caused" to do.  Nor do "causes" come about always from solely outside influences.  Haters gonna hate.  Kids gonna play with whatever he feels like playing with at the moment.  "Feels like" is a cause.  "Feels like" also HAS  causes, and more than we can possibly imagine.

It's certainly within your power (sovereignty) to sweeten the deal by making the fort "the best ever, Dad!" or to tell him not to play in the sandbox--like that's going to stop him--the same way the LORD put the Tree of the Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the midst of the garden and made it beautiful.   

And soon enough, he's going to grow up and tired of playing kid's games.  He's going to want more than the yard, even, most likely.  That's no hard to grasp concept or miracle either.  "Growing up" is a "Cause" for wanting to move on to higher experiences fit for grown-ups.

Anyway, there is no yard, or a swing-set or sand-box or fort to put in it without YOU.  There isn't even a kid, without YOU.  Without YOU, nothing in your analogy exists.  "Choice" in that instance is absolutely meaningless. 

Without HIM, your "yard, sandbox, swing-set, or fort" (everything in and of your entire world) doesn't exist.  Without HIM, you don't exist.  "Freedom" in that instance is absolutely meaningless.



 

[rick]

Hi Dave,

I see your point and you boxed it in very well. Without God nothing exist that I do understand . Let's take sin for instance , God does not tempt people to sin and God has not given anyone permission to sin and God hates sin but still we sin just the same. ( going against Gods will ) now Gods will and Gods intention are perhaps one in the same except no one can go against Gods intention however one can go against Gods will but only if it's Gods intention one goes against His will but if it's not Gods intention that one goes against His will then no one can go against His will.

Satan tempts us to sin not God but everything Satan does also has a cause so we say God is the first cause of all things which means God caused Satan to tempt/ cause us to sin and caused our fall according to the circumstances in our life which God is the cause of all things.

So there is no freedom of choice , the choice that we make is the only choice that can be made meaning the possibility of multiple choices that could be made is only a deception on our part.

God bless.

[Kat]

Hi Rick what you have described above would be a 'limited' free will and I think you have rightly come to the conclusion that cannot be right either. Here is where Ray had addressed that very idea.

http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html -----------------------------------

God follows His own spiritual laws. "Free will" sounds like a marvelous and magical thing -- it is rather, however, the god of stupidity. It is the height of man’s foolishness and human wisdom. It is both ungodly and unscriptural! It is an affront to the Sovereignty of God. Man and Satan are not deities that can operate independently of the Creator! The theory is a hoax, a farce, a sham. Its only reality is as an IDOL OF THE HEART which will be burned out of every son whom God scourges.

Of course all theologians are quick to point out that man does not possess total free will. Man's will is obviously limited we are told. Oh really? So it is "limited free will" that Satan and all humans possess, is it? Does no one ever bother to question the contradictions of Christian doctrine?

"Iimited, a. restricted," Webster’s Twentieth Century Dictionary, page 963.

"free, a, without restriction," Webster’s Twentieth Century dictionary page, page 682.

Does everyone know the meaning of the word "contradiction?" Only Satan could convince otherwise intelligent people that they have a "limited" -- restricted, "free" -- without restriction "will." For sure man has a will; however, it is anything but FREE!

"For it is GOD which works in you both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

"To will" requires a "work" of GOD! We all choose as we choose because there are things and forces and situations by the millions beyond anyone’s control that CAUSE US TO CHOOSE AS WE DO! It matters not that you cannot see or feel the cause. It is there and it does its work on you. And when causes make you choose, then that particular choice could not have ever been otherwise. God is the great CAUSE of all there is.

http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm -------------------------------

Theologians condemn scientists for their inability to see beyond the "relative" in our universe. Surely these scientists must see that a God must be behind everything. However, except for rare persons like Dr. Einstein, they can't.

God is not sitting around waiting to see what man will do through his "free will" so that He can then figure out what to do about it. Rather than conclude from the "wisdom of the world" that man has a free will (and thus deny the sovereignty of God), we must conclude that since God is sovereign, man can not and does not have a free will. This is logical, sensible, and lawful. It is Scriptural and it glorifies God.

Man does not have "limited" free will. Otherwise God would have "limited" sovereignty. Man has no free will and God has total sovereignty. Theologians try to make high what is low and try to bring low what is high. These teachings do not glorify God.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Rick, we have to get to where we have beliefs that cannot be shake by any kind of human reasoning. That comes from latching on to Scriptural truths and not letting go of them and that creates a solid foundation to stand on. Christ is the Cornerstone, our Rock/Stone by which we stand and that cannot be shaken by any doubts or confusion.

Luke 6:48  He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.

We have to recognize that God speaks to us through His Word and through that He is building a solid foundation of truth in us that will hold us firmly in His truth.  Ray constantly pointed us to these Scriptural truths, so when we see a foundational truth in the Scripture we need to hold it dear and believe it with certainty, not re-question it's validity over and over again. The more of these truths that we embrace the stronger Spiritually we become, the more we are ready to grow towards spiritual maturity.

Heb 5:13  For everyone who lives on milk is still a baby and does not yet know the difference between right and wrong.
v. 14  But solid food is for mature people, whose minds are trained by practice to distinguish good from evil.
Heb 6:1  Therefore, leaving behind the elementary teachings about the Messiah, let us continue to be carried along to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead actions, faith toward God,
v. 2  instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
v. 3  And this we will do, if God permits.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rick]

Hi Kat,

I think finally I can rest in the fact that God is completely sovereign and that all things lead back to God regardless whether one can comprehend it or not.

I like how Ray explain if one has limited free will then God would have limited sovereignty which makes no sense at all.

There is no doubt in me now as to why God had me going back and forth with this subject which was solely to enforce in my understanding His sovereignty without any doubt in my understanding of this fact.

Everything I think do and say is of God but what I find so fascinating is this great deception we believe it's us doing all these things without a cause when in reality it's not.

I must admit I don't feel so much like a spritual yo-yo today .

God bless.