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1 John 5: 4 .
lilitalienboi16:
Dear Goerge,
Im a simple minded person so lets go one question at a time for my sake.
I believe Kat provided a sufficient responce in what Ray has said which I believe I did faithfuly present to Rick originally.
God bless,
Alex
P.S. You said "You say that in the Greek, Born and Begotten are the same; and you say Conceived is different." But I didn't say that though. I said there is only one word for Born and Concieved in greek which is 'Begotten.'
octoberose:
Rick - i hardly know what to say. No words of mine can make this better - but I hope you know you are not alone. May God strenthen you in the days to come .
cheekie3:
Kat -
As always, thank you for your informative Post:
--- Quote from: Kat on July 31, 2016, 05:39:34 PM ---
We have these words (beget, born, conceive) being used and are being defined, here are a few things to consider.
In the Scripture when beget/begotten is used it's always describing the action of a man, whereas conceive always refers to what happens in a woman. Therefore you will notice that the word 'conceived' in not used to describe a person receiving the Holy Spirit, which comes from the Father (John 14:26; 15:26), so we are "begotten anew" (John 3:3, 7).
Now in the Greek there is only one word that is translated either born or begotten, so that is where it can get confusing. Here are a couple of emails on this.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3888.msg29544#msg29544 ----
There is but one word in the Greek manuscripts to represent "begotten," and "born." Numerous Scriptures tell us that we are given in this life, only the ernest or downpayment of God's Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14). Furthermore, Jesus told Necodemus that when one IS ACTUALLY "born again" he is like the wind (John 3:3-8). Christians are not powerful and invisible as the wind is, in this life. From these two truths, we can establish that we are "begotten" of God's Spirit in this life, but we will not be "BORN of God's Spirit" until the resurrection to immortality (I Cor. 15:42-54).
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,96.0.html ------
Unfortunately, the Greek word translated "born" is also the same Greek word translated "begotten." Therefore it is sometimes difficult to know whether a verse means "begotten" or "born." The truth is that all of God's promises to and for us in this life are in "earnest or down payment" of what is to follow. We have God's spirit in earnest only; we have eonian life in earnest only; we have understanding and perception in earnest only. In the resurrection we will be, "like the wind," "LIKE HIM" (I John 3:2).
God be with you,
Ray
--- End quote ---
Perhaps, we should focus on the true meaning of the word 'Redemption' - in order to ascertain, if The Elect are 'Redeemed' (in part, or in earnest) in This Age, or only at Their Resurrection:
Ephesians 1:13-14 King James Version (KJV):
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
John 3:3-8 King James Version (KJV):
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Looking at other New Testament Scriptures:
Luke 2:38 King James Version (KJV):
And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
Luke 21:28 King James Version (KJV):
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Romans 3:24 King James Version (KJV):
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 8:23 King James Version (KJV):
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
1 Corinthians 1:30 King James Version (KJV):
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Ephesians 1:7 King James Version (KJV):
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Ephesians 4:30 King James Version (KJV):
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Colossians 1:14 King James Version (KJV):
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Hebrews 9:12 King James Version (KJV):
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament (Covenant), that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Are we to believe that all the above Scriptures regarding redemption all apply only to the redemption of our body at our Resurrection?
Are we not redeemed now (in part or in earnest), 'as He has promised now, to forgive us of our sins, when we forgive all and repent all', do we not now have 'eonian life', and are we not now 'freely justified by His Grace'; and are we not now to 'Live our Lives in the New Man (the Second Adam)'. We may not have the fullness now, but do we have anything other than the forgiveness of our sins - are not our prayers, being righteous (In Him) powerful. Are we not in this Age, to do more wondrous works than Jesus Christ did before his Death, Burial, Resurrection and Ascension?
Are we not now (in Our New man) in full union with Our Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ? Who is the real man or woman that is us, is it the Old (Carnal) Man (or Woman), or is it the New (Spiritual) Man (or Woman)? Are we not to take 'here a little, there a little' of these Scriptural Truths, in order to Find The Truth of anything? Are we clear minded on the Things of God, that Please Him - are we not like 'flint' never wavering? Are we merely to be observers until the Resurrection of Our Bodies - are we not to be 'doers of The Word' - and if 'doers' what is it that we must do, if not 'all things in Christ Jesus as our New Man'?
Oops, I have a tendency lately, to Ramble On.
Please forgive me.
I am not trying to preach or teach - I am merely throwing these thoughts out here - for all of us on this forum to see who and what we are, and to see who and what we are not.
Maybe I should take a break and rest a little.
Peace.
George
Doug:
Rick, I am very sorry for you loss. Your faith will see you thru your darkest times. I hurt for you.
Kat:
--- Quote from: cheekie3 on August 01, 2016, 05:23:27 AM ---
Are we not now (in Our New man) in full union with Our Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ? Who is the real man or woman that is us, is it the Old (Carnal) Man (or Woman), or is it the New (Spiritual) Man (or Woman)? Are we not to take 'here a little, there a little' of these Scriptural Truths, in order to Find The Truth of anything? Are we clear minded on the Things of God, that Please Him - are we not like 'flint' never wavering? Are we merely to be observers until the Resurrection of Our Bodies - are we not to be 'doers of The Word' - and if 'doers' what is it that we must do, if not 'all things in Christ Jesus as our New Man'?
--- End quote ---
That first comment that I put in bold is what I cannot agree to... now all the rest of it is what I believe is being worked in the chosen at this time, yes the process has started and cannot fail to be completed. But what I'm saying is we are not in 'full' unity with God while still in these carnal bodies. The resurrection is so much more than just the physical body changing to a spirit body, that is when I believe we join in 'full' unity with God. But now we are "heirs" and have the "guarantee of our inheritance."
James 2:5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?
Luke 21:27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
v.28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."
This Scripture in Luke that says "your redemption draws near" as Christ is literally returning. Christ had said when they first see the "sign of the Son of Man appear in heaven" that is when He will call them up to meet Him in the air, the first resurrection, then is their full redemption.
Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
v. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!
This passage in Ephesians puts the process the chosen go through in this life all together in a way that I think is clear.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
v. 4 even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love
v. 5 He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will,
v. 6 to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved.
v. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace,
v. 8 which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
v. 9 making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ
v. 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.
v. 11 In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
v. 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory.
v. 13 In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
v. 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory. (ESV)
2Cor 5:4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
v. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
Rom 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
2Cor 5:6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
v. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
v. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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