The sovereignty of God.

[lilitalienboi16]

Approve is a very poor choice of wordage and causes some serious problems in our understanding. You say there is no choice we make that God does not approve and yet God disapproves of rape, murder, stealing, lying etc... etc.. and still man chooses this over good the vast majority of the time. The sovereignty of God does not require Him to approve every choice because He's created man in such a condition and many forces that influence man to make choices without His needing to directly approval of them. But simply because God doesn't approve of sinful choices doesn't mean He didnt know we would make those choices, that this experience isn't going exactly according to plan, nor does it absolve Him of responsibility or original causality of all creation. God tempts no man and He himself does not directly cause us to sin (that would be your 'Approve' argument) nor does He directly do evil.

So I agree with dave, there is a big problem in your saying God approves all choices man makes or they wouldnt happen. Thats simply not true but it is true that if God did not plan that man should do the evil he does then man would not do it. Man is not free to operate independantly of God's desires, intents, and purposes.

God bless,
Alex

[rick]

Hi Alex,

Did I not clarify my as you say big problem afterwards ? If so why keep it going ? I would expect that kind of response from Christendon not from Bt. Remember forgiveness is the thing to do for it covers a multitude of sins .

God bless.

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi Alex,

Did I not clarify my as you say big problem afterwards ? If so why keep it going ? I would expect that kind of response from Christendon not from Bt. Remember forgiveness is the thing to do for it covers a multitude of sins .

God bless.

Its good to discuss these things Rick. It allows us to all be of like mind and speak the same thing. I have certainly benefited from this in the past. You're not the only one who reads these forums. You may understand but others might not. Iron sharpens Iron. There is no need to find offence where none is intended. All discussion is meant for the edification of the body, you, myself, and all those God has called and chosen.

[Porter]

...There is nothing in everyone's life that God has not approved of so one can concluded God totally dominates His entire creation as He is totally sovereign over all things right down to our very yes or no.

Simple Definition of approve

: to believe that something or someone is good or acceptable

: to officially accept (an idea, action, plan, etc.)

I don't mean to nit-pick, but why would you put it like that?  What has God "approved"?  Is He up in heaven stamping His approval on our choices? 

And does He really "approve" of everything?  By that simple definition, why should He be long-suffering toward us?  That's an honest question.   He hasn't finished with us yet. 

Being a nit-picker myself, I couldn't help but to notice you were referring to the individual choices we make, to which I totally agree. So then looking at the whole of God's plan for humanity which involves everyone experiencing evil and partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; God did indeed "approve" it and saw that it was not only good, but very good.

Gen_1:31  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Agreed that God is long-suffering towards us, and I think that is in part because He can see us as we will be after all is said and done when we are finally in His spiritual image.

Rom 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

So I guess my point is that I agree the evil choices we make are not good or worthy of approval, but that the ultimate plan of God to use evil for saving us is good.

This is just me throwing out some possible answers to your "honest question" Dave. Not trying to contradict you as I know what you meant. Was just trying to present the "flip-side" if you know what I mean. Not that you prolly already didn't know it, but maybe for those that didn't.

It causes me to wonder if this is how God sees it this way all the time. Is this what in part enables Him to love us and be patient with us despite all our shortcomings? Is this how and why we are to love others with the knowledge of how they will all turn out?

I know we are not there yet, and there is still the work of getting the sin out of the sinner. I have a feeling God is pretty secure in His foreknowledge and plan for us all and quite possibly already sees us as we will be.

As always thanks Rick for your thought provoking topics and questions. And yes I believe everything is going according to Gods perfect plan. And here's one of my favorite quotes from Ray in an email that may or may not be relevant to the topic and put's it in greater perspective for me.

http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#sovern

I have been enjoying your open letters to the evangelists Kennedy and Hagee. I would like to know more about the sovereignty of God.  It is hard for me to comprehend that we have no free will that can come against God's intention and that everything that happens is His intention.  I have a friend who tries to talk to me about the sovereignty of God and I have difficulty understanding him.  When we are talking about any subject at all, he always interjects that whatever is happening is God's will and we should just "flow" with it.

But if that be true, why should we criticize or judge anything at all?  If God is in complete control and is willing everything, what difference does it make if certain ministers are teaching false things?  Why correct Kennedy and Hagee?  Are they not just doing what God intends?  Are they not just being used for God's good intent?   
It is all beyond me.

Mary

[Ray Replies]

Dear Mary:

Thank you for your comments. At least it is evident that you are using your brain and thinking.

It only seems confusing for you now, Mary. It is a GIANT revelation to come to realize that God is sovereign. If one thinks about, however, it is even a GREATER quantum leap into total foolishness to believe that GOD is NOT SOVEREIGN!!!

If God is NOT sovereign, then we have a god who isn't GOD AT ALL! How could someone be "God" and NOT know what humans are going to do? (I know what my thirteen year old daughter is going to do MOST of the time, and I'm not a god)!

How could God NOT have foreseen the absolute MESS this world is in?  Why does He allow it to continue?  If man thinks there is a better way to do things, why doesn't God think that way?  As Mark Twain mused, why did God CREATE DISEASES?  Weren't things bad ENOUGH?

The truth is that it takes more than just knowledge to understand God's strange doings; it also takes a bit of wisdom.  Now if the GREATEST wisdom of this world (including the wisdom of the two BILLION Christians), is, according to God Himself, FOOLISHNESS AND STUPIDITY,why would we expect anything else, but darkness and blindness regarding God and His revelation to us?

Christ was great with metaphors. He said, "If the light that is in you is DARKNESS; how GREAT IS THAT DARKNESS"?

I have asked "great minds" and "great scholars" to tell me what these great "wisdom's" of the world are that God calls "foolishness and stupidity." And they usually will give as an answer something that most people THEMSELVES consider "foolish and stupid." No, I don't want to know what even the world itself considers foolish and stupid, I want to know what the world considers "WISE", but that GOD considers "STUPID".

Now I have mediated on this grand theme for at least a few thousand hours. And I will tell you what is the most universally held philosophy of ALL MANKIND, including Christians AND heathens and non-believers. And that is that man possesses a "FREE WILL" (or "free moral agency" as some would call it). This bit of human wisdom is taught in ALL SCHOOLS of the world! But, amazingly, there is NO SUCH THING--it is TOTAL FOOLISHNESS AND TOTAL STUPIDITY!!

And it is because of this foolish wisdom of the world that Christendom has adopted the theory that God is NOT sovereign. They SAY that He is, but they prove by their teachings that they don't really believe it. And so they blame SATAN for all the uncontrollable evil in the world that can't be directly attributed to "man's free will". And the result is a God Who is no god at all. In fact, a very MEAN AND VINDICTIVE AND HATE-FILLED god that will supposedly TORTURE WITH REAL FIRE most of his creatures without water and without mercy for ALL ETERNITY!!!!!!!

These humanly devised unscriptural heresies are stupid, foolish, and evil. But God wants it to be taught anyway. Why? To ultimately show mankind just how stupid, and foolish, and evil, he really is. Mankind NEEDS a Saviour. God Himself IS both the Creator of the mess, and the SAVIOUR of it ALL!!! Either that, or SATAN IS GOD!

So why get upset and angry over stupid and evil things that God INTENDED TO BE IN THE FIRST PLACE?  Because God also gave us EMOTIONS, and brains, etc.  He WANTS us to hate evil and love righteousness even though it was God Himself Who created them BOTH.   It was GOD who invented, created, and planted the tree of the knowledge of both "good AND EVIL". God wants there to be men like Dr. Kennedy and Pastor Hagee who do not understand God's simple truths, and then He WANTS people like me to EXPOSE their foolishness and unscriptural heresy.
There is a great PURPOSE in it all. And all will turn out just great in the end. We need a spirit of wisdom to trust God that He knows EXACTLY WHAT HE IS DOING DOWN TO THE VIBRATION OF THE LAST ELECTRON.

The Roman saints asked Paul this same rhetorical question, only they, unlike most people, did realize that no one COULD go against God's intention. But they wanted to know, since this is true, the fact that all that happens is according to God's intention (not necessarily is "will"--that is another subject. "Intention"--what DOES happen, is different from "will"--which is the end result after all the bad things that DID happen, NO LONGER happen).

Why does God blame people for things that He INTENDED that they do in the first place? Listen: "You will be protesting to me, then, 'Why, then, is He [God] still blaming [for us sinning]? for who has withstood His [God's] INTENTION? O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded [that's us] WILL NOT PROTEST TO THE MOLDER [that's GOD], 'Why do you make me thus?'" (See Romans 9:12-25).

Paul then goes on to say that God has the RIGHT to do things as He pleases. Even making vessels of DISHONOR for a period of time to be used in exalting the vessels of HONOR.

Hope that helps your understanding.

Sincerely,

Ray
-----------------------------

[Extol]

Nice to hear from you Porter! That bolded line in Ray's email is one of my favorite quotes of his. 

[cheekie3]

Porter -

Great Post.

Thank You.

I particularly like this quote from Ray:

There is a great PURPOSE in it all. And all will turn out just great in the end. We need a spirit of wisdom to trust God that He knows EXACTLY WHAT HE IS DOING DOWN TO THE VIBRATION OF THE LAST ELECTRON.

Kind Regards.

George

[rick]

Hi porter,

Thanks for ur reply and also for understanding my meaning as Kat has too, good to hear from you again.

God bless.

[Chris]

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Psalm 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

We need only be still and wait on Him. He will save us.

Isaiah 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

God bless,
Alex

Thanks Alex.. this applies perfectly to my present situation

[RMA_Guy]

Great words of wisdom as usual Kat!