> General Discussions
New Testament Scriptural Definition of Sin
rick:
Hello George,
I believe Kat made and excellent observation in what our sister says and if I were to add anything it would be something I'm coming to terms with and that is its not us doing any of these things but Christ is doing the work through us.
And from what Christ does through us our hearts and minds are being renewed day by day understanding in and of ourselves we can do nothing except go through life as carnal minded people which is how God created us.
I'm starting to understand that every thing the word of God tells us to do we cannot do any of it on our own except Christ performs it in us.
God bless.
lilitalienboi16:
In the FAQ there are some emails of ray on just what is the law, and the covenent, and how does it fit into the new testament. Certainly relavent here.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,15180.0.html
So the law given to Moses, that is the 10 commandments, is spiritual.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6442.0.html -----
The OLD LAW was and still is "spiritual." "For we know that the LAW [the one they always had] IS SPIRITUAL" (Rom. 7:14).
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4115.0.html -----------
It is not wrong to study the "Law" portions of Scripture. If, however, you think that you need to "keep" the law as ancient Israel attempted to do, you will accomplish very little. The reason for this is because "The LAW IS SPIRITUAL....." (Rom. 7:14). ONLY "Christ is the end [the goal, result, purpose, conclusion] of the law for righteousness in every one that believes" (Rom. 10:4). NO orthodox Jew can keep the law of God WITHOUT CHRIST! This is a lesson they will yet have to learn in Judgment.
---------------
And what commandment tells us the law was spiritual the whole time? The 10th, 'and don't ecen think about it!'
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. Rom 7:6 but now we are delivered from the law that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Indeed, i think romans chapter 7 sums it all up nicely for us.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 BUT AFTER THAT FAITH HAS COME, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SCHOOLMASTER
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Christ is the end of the law, our covering, our righreousness.
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
God bless,
Alex
cheekie3:
Kat -
Thank you for these Scriptures and very valid points. Very Intriguing!:
--- Quote from: Kat on August 18, 2016, 10:45:15 AM ---
What really is the law? Could it be that God's perfect way of living is made known in a righteous code and written down for us in His laws and statues and we see His precepts all through the Scripture. But it seems that the basic idea all comes down to what Christ says.
Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
v. 38 This is the first and great commandment.
v. 39 And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
v. 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
The law is to show us what is right and good and therefore reveals what sin is and how far from God's righteousness we are, as no human that has ever lived (accept Christ of course) can possibly live up to the laws of God.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
v. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
So by our very inborn carnal nature we are enmity with God, undeniably sinners, and our inability to obey His laws proves it to us over and over again.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
v. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 11:32 For God has shut up all in unbelief, so that He might show mercy to all.
Only when Christ's Spirit becomes indwelling and it will continue to increase and our carnality continues to decrease until we are God centered in our actual way of thinking. Then His laws/ways become our ways, because our whole attitude changes and we, through Christ are overcomers.
Heb 10:15 The Holy Spirit also is a witness to us; for after He had said before,
v. 16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord; I will put My Laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,"
v. 17 also He adds, "their sins and their iniquities I will remember no more."
Rom 11:27 For this is My covenant with them, when I have taken away their sins."
1John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
v. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
I understand that in essence, The Holy Scriptures are all about God and man, The Creator and His Creation, and the Rules that Our Heavenly Father has Commanded mankind to live by, for a good and orderly life.
So, whether we call His Ordinances, Law or Commandments, He has told us in His Word that there is a Right way to live - both in the Old Covenant and also in the New Covenant.
Man is weak and cannot obey His Commandments, so He gave us the remedy - via The Faith of Jesus Grace through His Grace (and Peace).
I know that The Scriptures state that The Law (of Moses) is meant for sinners and not for the Righteous - and we are not under Law but under Grace.
Yet, in the New Covenant Jesus Commanded His Elect to obey a higher Law and to obey all the Commandments of God.
If the Elect were sinners that sinned, and should now be saints (and no longer sinners - and sinners are those that break God's Law) that sin not (or at least have sin not dominate their lives - as sin is the transgression of His Law) - and yet the Elect are to obey all His Commandments - and Jesus Himself stated that we should always seek to do 'His Will and not our own will' - then, His Elect must have to obey His Word - and 'Do what He says' if His Elect claim to Love Him.
So if His Elect are no longer under Law but are now under Grace - why must His Elect 'Do All His Commandments'? Is this not the same as obeying Him? What does it mean to obey Him? Is it not the need to obey His spiritual Law? Were His Elect not told that the Law of Moses was spiritual; and the Old Testament people of God were carnal and could not obey His spiritual Law. Why then did Jesus expand on God's Law - showing that desiring to lust, is the same as committing that lust in God's Eyes?
Are not His Elect The Temple of God, where His Holy Spirit dwells? Must not His Elect Obey (Worship) Him in Spirit and in Truth?
What is True Worship? Is it not Obeying Him?
How can His Elect Obey Him?
His Elect, must live in The faith of Jesus Christ, under His Grace, by His Holy Spirit - and Worship (Obey) Him in Spirit and in Truth - and He has written His Law in their hearts and minds - and He continues to renew their minds to the Mind of Christ!
Hebrews 8:10: KJV:
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
If He has mandated that His Elect must have His Laws in the Elects' minds and written in the Elects' hearts - does this mean that 'His Laws' must be paramount and cannot ever be done away with?
That is The Question!
Is this one of His Absolute Truths?
What do you think?
Am I way off base here?
Kind Regards.
George
cheekie3:
Rick -
So True:
--- Quote from: Rick on August 18, 2016, 12:34:28 PM ---Hello George,
I believe Kat made and excellent observation in what our sister says and if I were to add anything it would be something I'm coming to terms with and that is its not us doing any of these things but Christ is doing the work through us.
And from what Christ does through us our hearts and minds are being renewed day by day understanding in and of ourselves we can do nothing except go through life as carnal minded people which is how God created us.
I'm starting to understand that every thing the word of God tells us to do we cannot do any of it on our own except Christ performs it in us.
God bless.
--- End quote ---
Kind Regards.
George
cheekie3:
Alex -
Thanks for Posting these invaluable Scriptures; together with Ray's insightful responses to questions about the Old Testament and New Testament (spiritual) Laws of Our Heavenly Father:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on August 18, 2016, 02:12:00 PM ---In the FAQ there are some emails of ray on just what is the law, and the covenent, and how does it fit into the new testament. Certainly relavent here.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,15180.0.html
So the law given to Moses, that is the 10 commandments, is spiritual.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6442.0.html -----
The OLD LAW was and still is "spiritual." "For we know that the LAW [the one they always had] IS SPIRITUAL" (Rom. 7:14).
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4115.0.html -----------
It is not wrong to study the "Law" portions of Scripture. If, however, you think that you need to "keep" the law as ancient Israel attempted to do, you will accomplish very little. The reason for this is because "The LAW IS SPIRITUAL....." (Rom. 7:14). ONLY "Christ is the end [the goal, result, purpose, conclusion] of the law for righteousness in every one that believes" (Rom. 10:4). NO orthodox Jew can keep the law of God WITHOUT CHRIST! This is a lesson they will yet have to learn in Judgment.
---------------
And what commandment tells us the law was spiritual the whole time? The 10th, 'and don't ecen think about it!'
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. Rom 7:6 but now we are delivered from the law that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Indeed, i think romans chapter 7 sums it all up nicely for us.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 BUT AFTER THAT FAITH HAS COME, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SCHOOLMASTER
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Christ is the end of the law, our covering, our righreousness.
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
God bless,
Alex
--- End quote ---
Ray went to great lengths to compare and distinguish between Almighty God's Old Testament Law (Covenant) and the New Testament Law (Covenant).
Ray did indeed confirm that there are two (spiritual) Covenants - and the Called try to live in both the Old Covenant (the Law of Moses) and the New Covenant (The higher Law of Christ) - and the parable of the old and new wine tells us that we are not to mix the two - as this leads to the corruption of both - the old Covenant (for babes) leads His Elect to the New Covenant (for mature sons and daughters).
I do not understand your reference to the tenth Commandment given by Almighty God to Moses:
Thou shalt not covet.
Exodus 20:17: KJV:
“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”
Romans 7:7: KJV:
"What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."
Am I missing something here - as do not these Covenants both fall under His Laws?
Are you saying that Law no longer applies to His Elect?
Kind Regards.
George
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