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Author Topic: New Testament Scriptural Definition of Sin  (Read 15701 times)

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cheekie3

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Re: New Testament Scriptural Definition of Sin
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2016, 10:13:00 AM »

Alex -

Thank you.

This is indeed very helpful about His Laws and the condition of mankind trying to keep His Law with their own works (with ordinances, etc) - and I got the shock of my life, when I first read (and understood) that thinking about lusting is a 'sin':

Well George, the way I understand it is, the law was and is spiritual, and it was the 10th commandment, 'don't covet', i.e. don't lust, i.e. DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT, that proved this to paull. after all, isn't that what Jesus said, don't even think about it? Dont lust after a woman in your heart, not just don't fornicate with her but don't even think about it!

So the old covenent is the ten commandments, which is part of the law of Moses, but the problem wasn't with the 10 commandments, it was with the heart of man, so the law came so that all might be found guilty, and then, a change was made, a new covenent which was to be written on the hearts of believers that to allow us to exceed in righteousness of the pharisees. That would make us able and spiritual, having life. How? Well the pharisees are trying to keep the law, which is spiritual, without Christ, with their filthy rags, which cannot be done for no man has power to not THINK (lust, covet) though he may outwardly appear to be righteouss and holy. But there is ONE WHO CAN keep Himself from coveting--JESUS. As the new covenent, He making His home in us, takes us beyond the just looking righteous to truly becoming holy by changing our hearts and minds. Yet if you try and keep that spiritual law of yourself, as all of israel after the flesh is trying, you will invariably fail because the 10th commandment will condemn you.

Jesus also showed us just how spiritual God's law is, i.e. love your enemies, don't hate them! Don't even THINK about hating your brother or you might as well have murdered him. But in Jesus our righteousness is fullfilled. He will complete us.

Hopefully this helps some. Its how I understand things. I also understand this is a difficult topic.
God bless,
Alex

I understand that His Laws were 'put' and 'written' in the hearts and minds of His People (The Elect):

Hebrews 8:10: KJV:
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hebrews 10:16: KJV:
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Kind Regards.

George


 
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cheekie3

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Re: New Testament Scriptural Definition of Sin
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2016, 11:50:37 AM »

Dave in Tenn -

I am sorry but I do not understand what you are stating in this Post:

That "sin is the transgression of the law" is, to my mind, not the definition of sinSIN is a word--not a bible-word or a theological concept

Here's what Paul wrote about his OWN experience with "law-keeping" among other things.

Php 3:4  Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Php 3:5  Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6  Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7  But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10  That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

No amount of theologizing and "defining scripturally" can make "blameless according to the law" mean something other than loss, or dung compared to what replaced it in Paul's own life.

Why does he speak in such strong terms?

Php 3:1  Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
Php 3:2  Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Php 3:3  For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

All I can tell you is, you've either discovered this or you haven't.  You've either fallen or you haven't.  You've either recognized within yourt own spirit that alms-giving, tithing, circumcision, fasting, et al CAN BE SIN or you haven't. You've either seen the man of perdition revealed even if you are "Blameless according to the 'righteousness' which is the law" or you haven't.  I don't "agree with Paul" out of theological necessity.  I agree with Paul in that I've lived this too, though *my* "law" was not solely and exclusively the Law of Moses.  This is where I start, and no "understanding" of these things that doesn't include this (and other passages) is or can be "true".

I know that no one can keep the law through their own works, rituals and ordinances

If 'sin' is not the transgression of 'sin', then what is 'sin'.

I know the 'son of sin (son of perdition)' is each and everyone one of us:

2 Thessalonians 2:3: KJV:
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

Do these New Testament Scriptures not relate 'sin' to 'law':

Romans 3:20: KJV:
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 5:13: KJV:
(for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

1 Corinthians 5:56: KJV:
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

I am sorry, I just do not understand clearly, what you are declaring.

I raised this Post as 'sin' is foundational to what Our Lord and Saviour (Jesus Christ) taught; and I thought that we should all know clearly, what 'sin' is - as opposed to what we 'think sin is' - as we are to search all things to determine the truth of things.

I know there are different Laws in The Scriptures; and I know it is essential that we understand which Law is referenced in any particular Scriptures - and as there are manu New Testament Scriptures referring to 'the Law of Christ', the 'Royal Law', the 'Law of Faith' and the 'Law of The Spirit', these cannot be referencing the 'law of Moses'.

I thought it would be a simple matter to confirm what 'sin' really is.

Maybe I was wrong in authoring this Post.
 
Kind Regards.

George

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cheekie3

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Re: New Testament Scriptural Definition of Sin
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2016, 12:02:42 PM »

Kat -

Thank you for Posting these Scriptures about the Law (and sin):


Hi George, certainly Christ made it clear that He was not doing away with the laws, but fulfilling them.

Mat 5:17  "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
v. 18  For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.


The thing is we cannot stop being carnal, as long as we are in these fleshly bodies we will sin, we are not perfected while in the flesh. That's what Paul is speaking of in Romans 7 in saying v. 25 "with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin," so not perfect. It takes something more than our obeying perfectly.

1John 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
v. 10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.  (also Php 3:12 below)

Well what about this verse "Whoever abides IN Him does not sin" (1John 3:6)? Notice what John had just stated in verse 5 "He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin." That's how we have no sin, we are IN Him. 

Yes indeed the chosen certainly are overcomers (1 John 4:4), are "set free from sin" (Rom 6:22), but only by Christ's blood covering our sin past, present and future, not because we can live perfect and sinless, but we're "justified by His grace" (Titus 3:7).

Gal 2:16  knowing that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but through faith in Jesus Christ; even we believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith in Christ, and not by works of the Law. For all flesh will not be justified by works of law.

Col 1:14  in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

1John 1:7  But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
v. 8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Eph 1:7  In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.

Rev 1:5  and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

Yes if His Spirit is indwelling then you are being prepared and perfected, but that takes the rest of your life in the flesh. Our sinning is often a learning lesson by which His chastening is teaching us something, how can He chasten if we literally do not sin?

Heb 12:6  For the Lord disciplines the one He loves, and chastises every son whom He receives."

Php 3:8  Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
v. 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith IN Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
v. 10  that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,
v. 11  if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
v. 12  Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Kind Regards.

George

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rick

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Re: New Testament Scriptural Definition of Sin
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2016, 04:19:47 PM »

Hi George, 


Very interesting thread , thanks for doing it and also because of this thread I've gained precious knowledge.

After reading every response on this thread plus my own studies I've concluded that anything outside of faith is sin and anything inside of faith is not sin.

Perhaps we mortals place to much emphasis on sin rather than on Christ being our justification which is probably one of the Devils many task trying to snatched the truth from us.


God bless.
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cheekie3

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Re: New Testament Scriptural Definition of Sin
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2016, 04:52:07 PM »

Rick -

Thank you for your Comments below:

Hi George, 


Very interesting thread , thanks for doing it and also because of this thread I've gained precious knowledge.

After reading every response on this thread plus my own studies I've concluded that anything outside of faith is sin and anything inside of faith is not sin.

Perhaps we mortals place to much emphasis on sin rather than on Christ being our justification which is probably one of the Devils many task trying to snatched the truth from us.


God bless.

I thought it was key that we should all know The Scriptural meaning of 'sin'.

Kind Regards.

George

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lilitalienboi16

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Re: New Testament Scriptural Definition of Sin
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2016, 05:11:26 PM »

Alex -

Thank you.

This is indeed very helpful about His Laws and the condition of mankind trying to keep His Law with their own works (with ordinances, etc) - and I got the shock of my life, when I first read (and understood) that thinking about lusting is a 'sin':

Well George, the way I understand it is, the law was and is spiritual, and it was the 10th commandment, 'don't covet', i.e. don't lust, i.e. DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT, that proved this to paull. after all, isn't that what Jesus said, don't even think about it? Dont lust after a woman in your heart, not just don't fornicate with her but don't even think about it!

So the old covenent is the ten commandments, which is part of the law of Moses, but the problem wasn't with the 10 commandments, it was with the heart of man, so the law came so that all might be found guilty, and then, a change was made, a new covenent which was to be written on the hearts of believers that to allow us to exceed in righteousness of the pharisees. That would make us able and spiritual, having life. How? Well the pharisees are trying to keep the law, which is spiritual, without Christ, with their filthy rags, which cannot be done for no man has power to not THINK (lust, covet) though he may outwardly appear to be righteouss and holy. But there is ONE WHO CAN keep Himself from coveting--JESUS. As the new covenent, He making His home in us, takes us beyond the just looking righteous to truly becoming holy by changing our hearts and minds. Yet if you try and keep that spiritual law of yourself, as all of israel after the flesh is trying, you will invariably fail because the 10th commandment will condemn you.

Jesus also showed us just how spiritual God's law is, i.e. love your enemies, don't hate them! Don't even THINK about hating your brother or you might as well have murdered him. But in Jesus our righteousness is fullfilled. He will complete us.

Hopefully this helps some. Its how I understand things. I also understand this is a difficult topic.
God bless,
Alex

I understand that His Laws were 'put' and 'written' in the hearts and minds of His People (The Elect):

Hebrews 8:10: KJV:
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hebrews 10:16: KJV:
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Kind Regards.

George

Hi George,

Let me clarify one thing. Lusting in and of itself is not a sin. Jesus LUSTED to eat the last supper with His disciples but He never sinned. Its what you're lusting after, what's in your heart (for what proceeds from the heart defiles a man) that can be sinful. And so we see its the heart of man that needs a changing!

Glad my post wasn't too much mombo jumbo for people to understand ;)

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

cheekie3

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Re: New Testament Scriptural Definition of Sin
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2016, 05:38:25 PM »

Alex -

Thanks for this clarification regarding 'lust':

Alex -

Thank you.

This is indeed very helpful about His Laws and the condition of mankind trying to keep His Law with their own works (with ordinances, etc) - and I got the shock of my life, when I first read (and understood) that thinking about lusting is a 'sin':

Well George, the way I understand it is, the law was and is spiritual, and it was the 10th commandment, 'don't covet', i.e. don't lust, i.e. DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT, that proved this to paull. after all, isn't that what Jesus said, don't even think about it? Dont lust after a woman in your heart, not just don't fornicate with her but don't even think about it!

So the old covenent is the ten commandments, which is part of the law of Moses, but the problem wasn't with the 10 commandments, it was with the heart of man, so the law came so that all might be found guilty, and then, a change was made, a new covenent which was to be written on the hearts of believers that to allow us to exceed in righteousness of the pharisees. That would make us able and spiritual, having life. How? Well the pharisees are trying to keep the law, which is spiritual, without Christ, with their filthy rags, which cannot be done for no man has power to not THINK (lust, covet) though he may outwardly appear to be righteouss and holy. But there is ONE WHO CAN keep Himself from coveting--JESUS. As the new covenent, He making His home in us, takes us beyond the just looking righteous to truly becoming holy by changing our hearts and minds. Yet if you try and keep that spiritual law of yourself, as all of israel after the flesh is trying, you will invariably fail because the 10th commandment will condemn you.

Jesus also showed us just how spiritual God's law is, i.e. love your enemies, don't hate them! Don't even THINK about hating your brother or you might as well have murdered him. But in Jesus our righteousness is fullfilled. He will complete us.

Hopefully this helps some. Its how I understand things. I also understand this is a difficult topic.
God bless,
Alex

I understand that His Laws were 'put' and 'written' in the hearts and minds of His People (The Elect):

Hebrews 8:10: KJV:
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hebrews 10:16: KJV:
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Kind Regards.

George

Hi George,

Let me clarify one thing. Lusting in and of itself is not a sin. Jesus LUSTED to eat the last supper with His disciples but He never sinned. Its what you're lusting after, what's in your heart (for what proceeds from the heart defiles a man) that can be sinful. And so we see its the heart of man that needs a changing!

Glad my post wasn't too much mombo jumbo for people to understand ;)

God bless,
Alex

I always thought that 'lust' was not a good thing at all.

I John 2:16: KJV:
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Is this the Scripture you are referring to:

Luke 22:15: KJV:
And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

Luke 22:15: NIV:
And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.

Luke 22:15: Phillips Version
Then, when the time came, he took his seat at table with the apostles, and spoke to them, “With all my heart I have longed to eat this Passover with you before the time comes for me to suffer.

Kind Regards.

George

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lilitalienboi16

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Re: New Testament Scriptural Definition of Sin
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2016, 05:47:43 PM »

That is correct George. Check strong's usage of the word desire. Its the same word used for Lust. Same exact word.

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

cheekie3

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Re: New Testament Scriptural Definition of Sin
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2016, 07:34:30 PM »

Alex -

Thank You for confirming this:

That is correct George. Check strong's usage of the word desire. Its the same word used for Lust. Same exact word.

God bless,
Alex

Kind Regards.

George

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: New Testament Scriptural Definition of Sin
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2016, 07:47:34 PM »

There's a good example.  "Lust" is "desire" and whether or not "doing it" is wrong depends on the motive of the heart and the thing being lusted after/desired.  It's not a bible word, it's a word that's in the bible.  Replace "lust" with "desire" in any passage I know of and the meaning doesn't change.  In my view, it even helps, because "desire" has less theological baggage than "lust"...at least it would until it doesn't any more.   ;)

Same with "sin".  Hamartia:

G266
ἁμαρτία
hamartia
Thayer Definition:
1) equivalent to 264
1a) to be without a share in
1b) to miss the mark
1c) to err, be mistaken
1d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour,to do or go wrong
1e) to wander from the law of God, violate God’s law, sin
2) that which is done wrong, sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act
3) collectively, the complex or aggregate of sins committed either by a single person or by many

Mr. Thayer didn't invent those definitions.  He compiled them from usage within the scripture (or at least his understanding of its use in scripture).  One word (depending on the 'context') may mean any of those.  But it's use is not limited to the Scripture.  It's a word, so it can be used in other ways as well.

Further complicating things is that there are other so-called "bible-words" in many of those definitions, and a propensity to conflate the meaning of "sin" with any number of other so-called "bible-words" like wickedness, iniquity, unrighteousness, and (the one Ray wrote a bit about) "evil".  Should they always be synonyms?  Maybe yes, maybe no. 

My use of "you" was generic and not intended to be personal (to you or anybody else).  But there are people to whom it applies, so maybe I was typing beyond you to other readers who might understand.

My personal bible-study is mostly about two things:  1.  To see if what somebody says is actually true.  That's the "Berean" motive.  2.  To take the scripture out of the mouths of theologians and preachers and bore down into what it really says--to understand the words as SOUND LANGUAGE, and perhaps to gain a better sense of the flavor (the "spirit"?) of a statement or passage. 

The first can be "doctrinal".  There are plenty of guys-with-bibles and no end to statements.  I have a few and have made more than a few myself.  The second is mostly just for me.  It's not necessarily doctrinal, but might become so by accident.  It's motive is the rest of 2Ti 3:16,17  All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, so that the man of God may be perfected, being fully furnished for every good work.

Which brings me roundabout to the other post.  What makes a "good work"?  Paul certainly seemed to be saying that it wasn't (among other things) his "blamelessness" according to the law.   
 
   
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

cheekie3

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Re: New Testament Scriptural Definition of Sin
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2016, 03:48:46 AM »

Dave in Tenn -

I note what you have written below:

There's a good example.  "Lust" is "desire" and whether or not "doing it" is wrong depends on the motive of the heart and the thing being lusted after/desired.  It's not a bible word, it's a word that's in the bible.  Replace "lust" with "desire" in any passage I know of and the meaning doesn't change.  In my view, it even helps, because "desire" has less theological baggage than "lust"...at least it would until it doesn't any more.   ;)

Same with "sin".  Hamartia:

G266
ἁμαρτία
hamartia
Thayer Definition:
1) equivalent to 264
1a) to be without a share in
1b) to miss the mark
1c) to err, be mistaken
1d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour,to do or go wrong
1e) to wander from the law of God, violate God’s law, sin
2) that which is done wrong, sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act
3) collectively, the complex or aggregate of sins committed either by a single person or by many

Mr. Thayer didn't invent those definitions.  He compiled them from usage within the scripture (or at least his understanding of its use in scripture).  One word (depending on the 'context') may mean any of those.  But it's use is not limited to the Scripture.  It's a word, so it can be used in other ways as well.

Further complicating things is that there are other so-called "bible-words" in many of those definitions, and a propensity to conflate the meaning of "sin" with any number of other so-called "bible-words" like wickedness, iniquity, unrighteousness, and (the one Ray wrote a bit about) "evil".  Should they always be synonyms?  Maybe yes, maybe no. 

My use of "you" was generic and not intended to be personal (to you or anybody else).  But there are people to whom it applies, so maybe I was typing beyond you to other readers who might understand.

My personal bible-study is mostly about two things:  1.  To see if what somebody says is actually true.  That's the "Berean" motive.  2.  To take the scripture out of the mouths of theologians and preachers and bore down into what it really says--to understand the words as SOUND LANGUAGE, and perhaps to gain a better sense of the flavor (the "spirit"?) of a statement or passage. 

The first can be "doctrinal".  There are plenty of guys-with-bibles and no end to statements.  I have a few and have made more than a few myself.  The second is mostly just for me.  It's not necessarily doctrinal, but might become so by accident.  It's motive is the rest of 2Ti 3:16,17  All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, so that the man of God may be perfected, being fully furnished for every good work.

Which brings me roundabout to the other post.  What makes a "good work"?  Paul certainly seemed to be saying that it wasn't (among other things) his "blamelessness" according to the law.   
 
 

I have recently discovered that 'Noah Webster' who I understand was the first to define the meaning of words in a dictionary, used The Holy Scriptures to determine their meaning.

Ray also taught, that it is very important to read and listen to all the words in The Scriptures; especially when the word is first used.

I note from the definitions you have provided above, the following:

1e) to wander from the law of God, violate God’s law, sin
2) that which is done wrong, sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act

Which to my simple mind, mean 'sin' is the 'transgression of God's Law'.

I have researched this, and I cannot find a single Scripture, whereby the meaning 'the transgression of God's Law' is not apt to describe the Scriptural word 'sin'- especially in The Old Covenant - and I recall this Scripture in particular - which I have always taken to refer to the first five Books of The Old Testament:

Joshua 1:8: KJV:

This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

Which to my simple mind, is an instruction on how to keep and obey God's Law and not transgress it (and I know that no one can keep The Law by their own ability and works).

This is what I do 'night and day' - meditate and dwell and ponder and aim to get the True meaning of The Holy Scriptures - which are 'Life' to each and all of us.

Unless I have misunderstood you, I get the impression that you are saying that 'sin' can have a different meaning depending on the context of the Scriptural passage (even though the original Hebrew or Greek word is 'sin').

If so, I am sorry but I still do not understand what you are stating.

I normally have no difficulty understanding what someone has written, but I do not understand fully your Post above, nor your previous Post.

Perhaps, you would be gracious enough to provide me with two Scriptures, whereby 'sin' cannot ever mean 'the transgression of God's Law', and 'sin' means something else.

Thank You.

Kind Regards.

George

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Joel

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Re: New Testament Scriptural Definition of Sin
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2016, 11:50:31 AM »

The way I see it, we have a knowledge of sin because of the law, Romans 3:20.
We can overcome only by God's holy Spirit working in our lives with the fruits of the Spirit, Galatians 5:22-23.
Without God we go about doing the WORKS of the flesh Galatians 5:19-21.
The WAGES of sin is death, Romans 5:23. Eon life is a gift of God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Joel
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cheekie3

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Re: New Testament Scriptural Definition of Sin
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2016, 03:38:11 PM »

Joel -

Thank you for your Post:

The way I see it, we have a knowledge of sin because of the law, Romans 3:20.
We can overcome only by God's holy Spirit working in our lives with the fruits of the Spirit, Galatians 5:22-23.
Without God we go about doing the WORKS of the flesh Galatians 5:19-21.
The WAGES of sin is death, Romans 5:23. Eon life is a gift of God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Joel

These are Very Good 'sum of His Word' Scriptures.

Kind Regards.

George

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: New Testament Scriptural Definition of Sin
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2016, 07:28:01 PM »

George, technically and literally, no mention of the word "sin" before the giving of the Law at Sinai is a "transgression of the (that) law".  Of course, that certainly doesn't mean that "sin" didn't exist before the Law given through Moses.

In the Hebrew scriptures, there is more than one word translated "sin", though they seem to be very closely related.  I'm not a Hebrew scholar by any means, but a perusal of usage of two of the three I found point to a definition that more closely matches 1b) to miss the mark, 1c) to err, be mistaken 1d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour,to do or go wrong.  Genesis 20 reads that way from Abimelech's point of view (with which the Lord certainly seemed to agree)...maybe even from Abraham's.

Gen 20:9  And Abimelech called Abraham and said to him, What have you done to us? And in what have I offended you that you have brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? (Made me make a huge mistake)  You have done things to me that ought not to be done.

From the New testament, there's this from Jesus to the Pharisees.

Joh 9:41  Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have had no sin. Yet now you are saying that 'We are observing.' Your sin, then, is remaining."

No sin?  Not sin at all?  Really?  What sin is remaining?  Their "transgression of the Law"?  Better understood here, "sin" is 1c) to err, be mistaken 1d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour,to do or go wrong 

The way I've understood your posts thus far is in questioning just what law which, when transgressed, is sin.  Maybe I've misunderstood too.  But maybe these will help.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,15180.0.html

Let's let the rest be undue strife over words and end it.  All I wanted to do was enter the conversation.

   

 
 



 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

cheekie3

  • Guest
Re: New Testament Scriptural Definition of Sin
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2016, 08:29:06 AM »

Dave in Tenn -

Thank you for sharing these Teachings of Ray and the associated Scriptures:

George, technically and literally, no mention of the word "sin" before the giving of the Law at Sinai is a "transgression of the (that) law".  Of course, that certainly doesn't mean that "sin" didn't exist before the Law given through Moses.

In the Hebrew scriptures, there is more than one word translated "sin", though they seem to be very closely related.  I'm not a Hebrew scholar by any means, but a perusal of usage of two of the three I found point to a definition that more closely matches 1b) to miss the mark, 1c) to err, be mistaken 1d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour,to do or go wrong.  Genesis 20 reads that way from Abimelech's point of view (with which the Lord certainly seemed to agree)...maybe even from Abraham's.

Gen 20:9  And Abimelech called Abraham and said to him, What have you done to us? And in what have I offended you that you have brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? (Made me make a huge mistake)  You have done things to me that ought not to be done.

From the New testament, there's this from Jesus to the Pharisees.

Joh 9:41  Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have had no sin. Yet now you are saying that 'We are observing.' Your sin, then, is remaining."

No sin?  Not sin at all?  Really?  What sin is remaining?  Their "transgression of the Law"?  Better understood here, "sin" is 1c) to err, be mistaken 1d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour,to do or go wrong 

The way I've understood your posts thus far is in questioning just what law which, when transgressed, is sin.  Maybe I've misunderstood too.  But maybe these will help.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,15180.0.html

Let's let the rest be undue strife over words and end it.  All I wanted to do was enter the conversation.

   

 
 



 

Dave - I always appreciate your input.

On this Post, I did not fully understand what you were stating 'sin' was.

I will study the posts you shared anew.

As I understand His Laws (and I could be mistaken in some aspects of this), we know that they are:

1. All Spiritual, and require each of us The Grace of God and the Faith Of Jesus Christ to keep any part of His Laws.

2. The Old Testament (Covenant) was changed because no one could keep The Law - if you broke one aspect of The Law, you broke all of it - and the sin offerings only covered ones' 'sins', and did not 'forgive' their 'sins'.

3. The New Testament (Covenant) gives each and every one of us, In Christ Jesus, the opportunity to get 'right with God'. 

Permit me to provide a little background for you - on how I got to raise this particular Post on 'sin':

To me, in my life, I find that we are ruled (or overly ruled) by 'Laws' - mainly 'man-made' acts and statutes that keep changing and growing. There are so many laws that it is impossible for any single man or woman to read them all, let alone fully understand them.

I always thought that God's Laws applied to our daily lives (like His Laws in Nature); and our governments based their legal systems on God's Laws.

So, I started to research His Laws - and I found 'sin' prevented us from obeying His Law(s).

If the end game of Almighty God is to make us righteous - and that we no longer desire to 'sin' anymore - I thought the meaning of 'sin' was important.

To me, 'Law' and 'sin' are probably the most mentioned in both The Old and New Testaments - so, I think that these are very important, and I wanted to know if I fully understood what these really are.

The first five (5) Books in The Old Testament, from the beginnings, are classified as 'The Book of The Law' - and there is a lot in these Books - especially details about 'His Laws' for mankind.
 
I am still studying 'Law' and 'sin' in The Scriptures.

I understand Saul (who was probably the most learned man on The Laws of God in The Old Testament) thought he kept 'The Law' and was righteous before Almighty God (yet Saul persecuted Jesus' followers) - then God blinded him for three (3) days and his life changed completely - and God started to teach him the condition of mankind and the Gospel for freeing mankind from 'sin' and death; and Paul's Epistles are an integral part of His Word, as many great Truths are revealed therein.

Kind Regards.

George



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Kat

  • Guest
Re: New Testament Scriptural Definition of Sin
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2016, 12:12:22 PM »


The OT law was given to Israel (God's chosen people, but a representative of all carnal people) and it guided every aspect of their life morally, socially, politically and their religion. The law is holy and good (Rom 7:12), but weak in that it was dependent on man’s ability (far to weak) to obey it, "what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh..." (Rom 8:3). Therefore it revealed that all are sinners, incapable of living up to the righteous standards of the law.

Rom 3:19  Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
v.20  Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

But the law was temporary, never intended to be a permanent, never meant to 'save' anybody, as it was just meant to be our tutor until Christ came, until the Holy Spirit could be sent.

Gal 3:23  But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
v. 24  Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Rom 8:3  What the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
v. 4  that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Rom 10:4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

So the law served it's purpose, and Christ ends the Law as those chosen are no longer under the Law. Christ fulfilled the Law by living a sinless life and by His sacrifice, so that "the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us," as it's applied to the believe as Christ is indwelling.

Col 2:13  And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
Col 2:14  having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

So believers are now under the new covenant and a higher law, "the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ," so if we are under the Spirit, than we are not under the old covenant.

Gal 5:18  But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
v. 2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 03:06:17 PM by Kat »
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cheekie3

  • Guest
Re: New Testament Scriptural Definition of Sin
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2016, 01:56:51 PM »

Kat -

Thank you for these Scriptures and your comments:


The OT law was given to Israel (God's chosen people, but a representative of all carnal people) and it guided every aspect of their life morally, socially, politically and their religion. The law is holy and good (Rom 7:12), but weak in that it was dependent on man’s ability (far to weak) to obey it, "what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh..." (Rom 8:3). Therefore it revealed that all are sinners, incapable of living up to the righteous standards of the law.

Rom 3:19  Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
v.20  Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


But the law was temporary, never intended to be a permanent, never meant to 'save' anybody, as it was just meant to be our tutor until Christ came, until the Holy Spirit could be sent.

Gal 3:23  But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. making them free from The Law of sin and death
v. 24  Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


Rom 8:3  What the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
v. 4  that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Rom 10:4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.


So the law served it's purpose, and Christ ends the Law as those chosen are no longer under the Law. Christ fulfilled the Law by living a sinless life and by His sacrifice, so that "the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us," as it's applied to the believe as Christ is indwelling.

Col 2:13  And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
Col 2:14  having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.


So believers are now under the new covenant and a new law, "the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ," so if we are under the Spirit, than we are not under the OT Law, old covenant.

Gal 5:18  But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
v. 2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.


mercy, peace and love
Kat

I recollect that Ray said that The Old Covenant was done away with by The New Covenant - and 'His Law' is now to be written and put into the hearts and minds of His Followers, in order for them to be able to obey His Commandments, by His Spirit (indwelling in them), and The Faith of Jesus Christ.

We could possibly summarise this as follows:

A. The Law of God was 'Holy and Good' but no one could keep it under The Old Covenant.

B. So God did away with The Old Covenant, and gave us The New Covenant, whereby He inscribed His Law into His People's hearts and minds - and Graced them with His Holy Spirit and The Faith of Jesus Christ, (and made them free from The Law of sin and death, by The Law of Life in Christ Jesus).

What do you think Kat.

Kind Regards.

George


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Kat

  • Guest
Re: New Testament Scriptural Definition of Sin
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2016, 03:01:48 PM »


You are right about that George, it's not a new law, but a higher spiritual Law. Here is an excerpt on this.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm --------------------

We need to really understand and know as Paul did when he said: "For we KNOW that THE LAW IS SPIRITUAL..."  (Rom. 7:14). And just how did Paul "know"  this? Because of the 10th commandment of the Ten Commandments which were the main part of the Law of Moses, and the Old Covenant (Deut. 4:13).  "...Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law  [what law?]: for I had not known lust, except the law  [which law?] had said, 'THOU SHALT NOT COVET'"  (Rom. 7:7). Oh THAT law. That would be the 10th commandment of the Ten Commandments (Ex. 20:17).

Of course I have said and have written for many years now that the Ten Commandments of God are spiritual. And I have explained that it is this 10th commandment that is the absolute proof. The 7th commandment already said to not commit adultery, and the 8th commandment already said to not steal, but then the last and 10th commandment says in effect, "...and don't even THINK about it!"

Isn't this exactly what Jesus is teaching when He says that the commandment said to not commit adultery, be He then said we are not to even THINK ABOUT lusting after another woman with impure sexual thoughts?

This whole Sermon on the Mount is Christ's teaching on how to live an exceedingly higher level of morality and righteousness than was taught before, and the accompanying Judgments if one does not live up to these standards.

Paul taught:

 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster"  (Gal. 3:24-25). 

 The law was like elementary school, whereas living by faith in Christ is more like high school or college.

Is not elementary school necessary before high school? Most elementary students cannot do high school or college work. Do high school and college teachers contradict the math, grammar, and science that was learned in elementary school. No, of course not, and so neither does Jesus CONTRADICT the lessons of the Law of Moses which brought us to Him. We never contradict 2 + 2 = 4 when we get to high school, but we do move onto higher math and do not continue re-laying the foundation of these subjects already established back in elementary school.

We will now turn to the Sermon on the Mount and see if we are able to learn a little "new [spiritual] math."

Lets be clear on one thing before we enter this study. You will find the phrase, New Covenant, New Testament, and New Commandment in the Greek Scriptures, But you will not find the phrase "New LAW" anywhere. There are "new commandments" regarding that law, the but law is the same, as it is "spiritual" and therefore is not "temporal" (II Cor. 4:18). 

And let me make this perfectly clear. In the Old Covenant Law, we read this:   

"...you shall love your neighbor as yourself"  (Lev. 19:18 & Matt. 5:43, 19:19, 22:39, etc.)   

 The apostle John informs us that this commandment is not new: 

 "And now I beseech you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto you, but that which we had from the beginning, that we should love one another"  (II John 1:5).

But John also knew that Jesus did add something to this commandment:

"And this is HIS commandment, that we should believe on the Name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, AS He gave us commandment"  (I John 3:23). 

 Well was there something different about this commandment from the Old Covenant Law and "AS" Jesus commanded it? Yes there was. A new Law? No. A contradictory Law? No. Well what then was different from the way Jesus taught and kept this commandment to "love your neighbor?"

Here it is, simply and profoundly: "A NEW commandment I give unto you, That you love one another [same as the Old Commandment, right? No, here is were the new "AS" part comes in...] ...That you love one another AS I HAVE LOVED YOU, that you also love one another"  (John 13:34). Now that brings a whole lot more meaning to the "old" commandment which they had from the beginning. Loving "AS" Jesus loved, is a whole new ball game, as they say. 

There was and is nothing wrong with the Law of Moses. God calls it "MY law."

The problem was never with the Law, but with the people: 

 "O that there were such an HEART in them, that they would fear Me, and keep all My commandments always..."  (Deut. 5:29).

The problem was never with God's Law, but with the peoples' heart-they were carnal, and when one is carnal, he cannot keep a "spiritual" law:

 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be"  (Rom. 8:6-7).

And here is absolutely proof that there needed a change in the Covenant, not in the LAW OF THE COVENANT: 

 "For if that first covenant ['covenant,' not law] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For FINDING FAULT WITH THEM, He said, Behold, the days come, says the Lord, when I will make a NEW COVENANT [not a New Law] with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah... For this is the covenant that I will make... I will put my LAWS [same old laws-but new covenant] into their MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS..."  (Heb. 8:7-9). 

 There it is!

The New makes alive and ends in "eternal [eonian-immortal] LIFE."

"Who also has made us able ministers of the NEW Testament; not of the letter, but of the SPIRIT: for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives LIFE"  (II Cor. 3:6). 

 This along with the blood sacrifice of Jesus IS the New Covenant; the Gospel; the Kingdom of God.

The Old letter of the law was glorious, but the newly applied Spirit of the law does "much more exceed in glory"  (II Cor. 3:9). The Old Covenant law was how God's people were judged under Moses: the New Covenant law is how God's chosen Elect will be judged under Jesus.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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cheekie3

  • Guest
Re: New Testament Scriptural Definition of Sin
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2016, 03:34:16 PM »

Kat -

Thank you for Posting this:


You are right about that George, it's not a new law, but a higher spiritual Law. Here is an excerpt on this.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm --------------------

We need to really understand and know as Paul did when he said: "For we KNOW that THE LAW IS SPIRITUAL..."  (Rom. 7:14). And just how did Paul "know"  this? Because of the 10th commandment of the Ten Commandments which were the main part of the Law of Moses, and the Old Covenant (Deut. 4:13).  "...Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law  [what law?]: for I had not known lust, except the law  [which law?] had said, 'THOU SHALT NOT COVET'"  (Rom. 7:7). Oh THAT law. That would be the 10th commandment of the Ten Commandments (Ex. 20:17).

Of course I have said and have written for many years now that the Ten Commandments of God are spiritual. And I have explained that it is this 10th commandment that is the absolute proof. The 7th commandment already said to not commit adultery, and the 8th commandment already said to not steal, but then the last and 10th commandment says in effect, "...and don't even THINK about it!"

Isn't this exactly what Jesus is teaching when He says that the commandment said to not commit adultery, be He then said we are not to even THINK ABOUT lusting after another woman with impure sexual thoughts?

This whole Sermon on the Mount is Christ's teaching on how to live an exceedingly higher level of morality and righteousness than was taught before, and the accompanying Judgments if one does not live up to these standards.

Paul taught:

 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster"  (Gal. 3:24-25). 

 The law was like elementary school, whereas living by faith in Christ is more like high school or college.

Is not elementary school necessary before high school? Most elementary students cannot do high school or college work. Do high school and college teachers contradict the math, grammar, and science that was learned in elementary school. No, of course not, and so neither does Jesus CONTRADICT the lessons of the Law of Moses which brought us to Him. We never contradict 2 + 2 = 4 when we get to high school, but we do move onto higher math and do not continue re-laying the foundation of these subjects already established back in elementary school.

We will now turn to the Sermon on the Mount and see if we are able to learn a little "new [spiritual] math."

Lets be clear on one thing before we enter this study. You will find the phrase, New Covenant, New Testament, and New Commandment in the Greek Scriptures, But you will not find the phrase "New LAW" anywhere. There are "new commandments" regarding that law, the but law is the same, as it is "spiritual" and therefore is not "temporal" (II Cor. 4:18). 

And let me make this perfectly clear. In the Old Covenant Law, we read this:   

"...you shall love your neighbor as yourself"  (Lev. 19:18 & Matt. 5:43, 19:19, 22:39, etc.)   

 The apostle John informs us that this commandment is not new: 

 "And now I beseech you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto you, but that which we had from the beginning, that we should love one another"  (II John 1:5).

But John also knew that Jesus did add something to this commandment:

"And this is HIS commandment, that we should believe on the Name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, AS He gave us commandment"  (I John 3:23). 

 Well was there something different about this commandment from the Old Covenant Law and "AS" Jesus commanded it? Yes there was. A new Law? No. A contradictory Law? No. Well what then was different from the way Jesus taught and kept this commandment to "love your neighbor?"

Here it is, simply and profoundly: "A NEW commandment I give unto you, That you love one another [same as the Old Commandment, right? No, here is were the new "AS" part comes in...] ...That you love one another AS I HAVE LOVED YOU, that you also love one another"  (John 13:34). Now that brings a whole lot more meaning to the "old" commandment which they had from the beginning. Loving "AS" Jesus loved, is a whole new ball game, as they say. 

There was and is nothing wrong with the Law of Moses. God calls it "MY law."

The problem was never with the Law, but with the people: 

 "O that there were such an HEART in them, that they would fear Me, and keep all My commandments always..."  (Deut. 5:29).

The problem was never with God's Law, but with the peoples' heart-they were carnal, and when one is carnal, he cannot keep a "spiritual" law:

 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be"  (Rom. 8:6-7).

And here is absolutely proof that there needed a change in the Covenant, not in the LAW OF THE COVENANT: 

 "For if that first covenant ['covenant,' not law] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For FINDING FAULT WITH THEM, He said, Behold, the days come, says the Lord, when I will make a NEW COVENANT [not a New Law] with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah... For this is the covenant that I will make... I will put my LAWS [same old laws-but new covenant] into their MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS..."  (Heb. 8:7-9). 

 There it is!

The New makes alive and ends in "eternal [eonian-immortal] LIFE."

"Who also has made us able ministers of the NEW Testament; not of the letter, but of the SPIRIT: for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives LIFE"  (II Cor. 3:6). 

 This along with the blood sacrifice of Jesus IS the New Covenant; the Gospel; the Kingdom of God.

The Old letter of the law was glorious, but the newly applied Spirit of the law does "much more exceed in glory"  (II Cor. 3:9). The Old Covenant law was how God's people were judged under Moses: the New Covenant law is how God's chosen Elect will be judged under Jesus.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Ray explains the 'Law' and the 'Covenants', and the 'hearts and minds' of people very well.

Kind Regards.

George



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Flanagan

  • Guest
Re: New Testament Scriptural Definition of Sin
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2016, 11:07:42 PM »

Thanks Brother Dave from Tenn, I think I feel ya :) , I only hope someday I can be as scripturally mature as most of my dear Brothers and Sisters on this forum. Praise be to God and Christ Jesus for such helpful Slaves in Christ.
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