> General Discussions
Did Jesus Christ Ever Claim to Be Almighty God or only The Son of Almighty God
cheekie3:
Dave in Tenn -
Thank you for your wise words and patience:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on August 19, 2016, 04:29:07 PM ---Let me say it again.
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on August 19, 2016, 11:26:33 AM ---We've learned from experience that this "issue" is one that can't be hashed out on the forum. I'd just advise any reader to read, watch, or listen to the materials on B-T and challenge your own assumptions. Assumptions are so plentiful, that it's beyond impractical to deal with them all in forum posts.
--- End quote ---
I'd love to leave the thread open long enough to answer the OP's question to his satisfaction. But it won't stay open long enough to answer everybody's curiosity.
--- End quote ---
Kind Regards.
Grateful George
lilitalienboi16:
Hi George,
I'm think you missed something very important that ray pointed out. The ONE in paul's state isn't the Father. Its The Father and Jesus.
Jesus said: "I [Jesus] and My Father are one" (John 10:30). Who is the
"one" in Jesus's statement? The Father? NO--"the Father AND Jesus."
Wow. Isn't that also what Paul really says in I Cor. 8:6?
That is the ONE God. From how I understand what you said, "There is One God - Our Heavenly Father together with His Beloved Son (Jesus Christ)'," isn't quiet the same to me as it makes it appear as if we have two God's.
As for your question regarding Rev 1:7 of "Say's the Lord" do we know if that is accurate? I believe we do. Revelation, as written by John, was originally done so in greek to my knowledge. I don't recall John ever using the term 'Jehovah' in his writings but rather the greek word 'Kurios' which is in english is 'Lord.'
Furthermore, Jesus of the NT is Jehovah of the OT. That is exactly what ray proved in his "Solving the Enigma of God, Part 1" paper and in his many other writings.
So ether way, it would be a moot point even if the original God inspired version had john hearing 'Jehovah' say those things as opposed to 'The Lord says', which like I said, I don't believe is the case anyway.
I agree that the Son could not exist without His Father but also remember, that a father is no father without his son. Jesus did say at one point in the flesh that His Father was greater but we are also told that before He emptied Himself "In God’s own form existed he, and shared with God equality, deemed nothing needed grasping. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." (Phil 2:6-8)
Hopefully this helps some. Its Always an interesting discussion.
God bless,
Alex
cheekie3:
Dave in Tenn -
Thanks for reminding us of this Post from Ray:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on August 19, 2016, 04:38:43 PM ---
--- Quote from: Rick on August 19, 2016, 02:49:40 PM ---Matthew 27:46 Jesus Cries out my God my God why have you forsaken me.
How would this fit in with Jesus being God Almighty if there is only one God ?
Interesting post George.
God bless.
--- End quote ---
Here's an email exchange. You'll have to do some thinking on how it applies to your question.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2775.0.html
> How are you doing Ray? Blessed I believe.
>
> I really appreciate the research that you have submitted yourself to under
> GOD's hand. I'm striving for such myself, (no flattery intended). I don't
> yet consider myself learned, but I'm aware of the holy spirits work in my
> life. I have a question for you if you will?, I have been hearing for a
> long time that when Jesus died on the cross he was seperated from the
> father, i don't find that in the scriptures atleast not in the sense that
> they are suggesting. They (ministers) constantly say that GOD turned his
> back on Jesus on the cross, I disagree with that... Jesus said I and the
> father are one. Even as Paul said i am convinced that nothing shall seperate
> us from the Love of GOD. Even though Jesus did go to the place of Sheol,
> how is it possible for him to take the keys from the Devil without authority
> upon hi gh, for without the spirit of GOD who is Jesus? There is another
> issue bothering me how they say Jesus said "Father why hast though forsaken
> me...?" which ties into the first question...Jesus was constantly aware, all
> through the gospel you hear him saying "its not my time yet," "Its not my
> time". If Jesus knew the intentions of GOD doesn't it seem like doubt for
> him to ask why have you forsaken me, considering that he was completely
> aware what the Fathers will was, and what was going to happen? Or was that
> the whole purpose of him saying it, to get us to identify with the
> sepration? Cause to me that seems like something the devil would say not
> GOD.
> Directly after he said that statement, He screamed and there was and
> earthquake, like something in the spirit realm took place, and then he says
> like it was nothing "It is done..." I think theres something else behind
> tha t But i don't believe for a second GOD turned his back on His only
> Begotten son, am I am wrong on this?
>
> May GOD further you...
No, David, neither do I believe that God "turned HIs back on His only Son."
There are those who teach it, however. Jesus quoted the first few words found
is Psalm 22 which goes on to describe just Who the Messiah was to be and the
purpose for Him being crucified.
God be with you,
Ray
-----------------------------------
Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician. Upon Aijeleth-Shahar. A Psalm of David. My *God, my *God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou far from my salvation, from the words of my groaning?
Psa 22:2 My God, I cry by day, and thou answerest not; and by night, and there is no rest for me:
Psa 22:3 And thou art holy, thou that dwellest amid the praises of Israel.
Psa 22:4 Our fathers confided in thee: they confided, and thou didst deliver them.
Psa 22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered; they confided in thee, and were not confounded.
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and the despised of the people.
Psa 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn; they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying:
Psa 22:8 Commit it to Jehovah--let him rescue him; let him deliver him, because he delighteth in him!
Psa 22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb; thou didst make me trust, upon my mother's breasts.
Psa 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb; thou art my *God from my mother's belly.
Psa 22:11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
Psa 22:12 Many bulls have encompassed me; Bashan's strong ones have beset me round.
Psa 22:13 They gape upon me with their mouth, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is become like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaveth to my palate; and thou hast laid me in the dust of death.
Psa 22:16 For dogs have encompassed me; an assembly of evil-doers have surrounded me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I may count all my bones. They look, they stare upon me;
Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Psa 22:19 But thou, Jehovah, be not far from me ; O my strength, haste thee to help me.
Psa 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my only one from the power of the dog;
Psa 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth. Yea, from the horns of the buffaloes hast thou answered me.
Psa 22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Psa 22:23 Ye that fear Jehovah, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and revere him, all ye the seed of Israel.
Psa 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him: but when he cried unto him, he heard.
Psa 22:25 My praise is from thee, in the great congregation; I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
Psa 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied; they shall praise Jehovah that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah, and all the families of the nations shall worship before thee:
Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is Jehovah's, and he ruleth among the nations.
Psa 22:29 All the fat ones of the earth shall eat and worship; all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him, and he that cannot keep alive his own soul.
Psa 22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
Psa 22:31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done it .
--- End quote ---
I agree that we should all meditate and study Psalm 22.
Perhaps, and I am not saying I know for sure - this explains The Good News (The Gospel) that Jesus taught, and thereafter His Apostles and disciples preached (in Acts and the Epistles of John, Peter, Jude, James and Paul).
Marvelous Psalm and it focuses our minds and hearts at the cruelty inflicted on Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ - who paid Our Ultimate Price for each and all of us.
Amazing Grace.
Kind Regards.
Insignificant George.
cheekie3:
Kat -
Thank you for your Post with these wonderful Scriptures regarding the enigma that is Our God and Saviour:
--- Quote from: Kat on August 19, 2016, 04:50:21 PM ---
There are certain things that you will not find spoken alright in the Scripture, and that is because there must be room for the blind to be deceived. I mean if everything was spoken clearly how could there be deception? That why Christ spoke in parables. As Largeli mentioned what Christ said of Himself is "I AM," and that He used as the same name in speaking to Moses "I AM that I AM" (Exo 3:14). I believe that statement contacts Him as Almighty God, used for Him throughout the OT and in Revelation.
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
I guess being His Son is not considered enough to be God? I think that's because we look on Father and Son as 2 separate beings. Christ states that He was "in Him" as part of the Father and as the Father was also "in Christ" and complete directed Him in every way.
John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works.
v. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the very works themselves.
Php 2:6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
That Scripture says that Christ was "equal" to God, as in His status of being part of the Father. Well still some may say these Scripture were not speaking about while Christ was a flesh and blood man... I certainly do not believe He lost His God status when He came in the flesh.
Mat 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive in her womb, and will bear a son. And they will call His name Emmanuel," which being interpreted is, God with us.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Rom 9:4 who are Israelis. To them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the worship, and the promises.
v. 5 To the Israelis belong the patriarchs, and from them, the Messiah descended, who is God over all, the one who is forever blessed. Amen.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
This is one of my favourite Scriptures:
John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works.
v. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the very works themselves.
We are told in The Scriptures that God is One; and from the beginning and before creation Jesus was One with His Father.
The Father's Voice is Jesus Christ.
Jesus had the Title 'Almighty God' because He is always 'In The Father' and the Father is always 'In His Son'.
Jesus was equal to God - as He and The Father are One.
Jesus is indeed 'God with us' as 'His and Our Father' is always with Him.
Jesus is 'God over all', as He has been given a 'name above all', and His Dominion is 'above all' - and Jesus will reign until 'all is in all', when Jesus will hand over His Kingdom to 'His and Our Heavenly Father'.
Kind Regards.
(Always learning more about Our Saviour and Our God) George
cheekie3:
Rick -
Thank you for Posting this very apt Scripture:
--- Quote from: Rick on August 19, 2016, 04:56:13 PM ---This scripture seems to suggest that Christ is God almighty.
Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
God bless.
--- End quote ---
It states that His Name shall be Called 'Almighty God' and 'The Everlasting Father' - and we know that The Father and His Son are One - and as Jesus said, 'if you have seen Me, you have seen The Father'.
Kind Regards.
George
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