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Author Topic: Giving thanks for all things?  (Read 15567 times)

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stello

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Giving thanks for all things?
« on: August 22, 2016, 01:53:52 PM »

Last night i was praying with my wife and i thanked God for the way the world is. All of the pain, sickness, war, famine etc. Afterwards she was a little upset that i thanked God for all of those things. I tried to explain that everything we are going through is God's will and we have to go through it all. She asked the question if i'm thankful that there are children starving all over the world. While i feel sorry for them and everyone suffering i think i was right in thanking God for all of it, because we understand we all have to have a knowledge and experience of evil.  Or am i wrong here? The scriptures do say to give thanks in/for all things.

stello
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Job 13:15 "Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him."

Joel

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Re: Giving thanks for all things?
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2016, 03:21:50 PM »

A couple scriptures;
Ecclesiastes 7:13-14 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?
In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider: God also hath set the one over against the other, to the end that man should find nothing after him.

Joel
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cheekie3

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Re: Giving thanks for all things?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2016, 05:24:35 PM »

stello -

Last night i was praying with my wife and i thanked God for the way the world is. All of the pain, sickness, war, famine etc. Afterwards she was a little upset that i thanked God for all of those things. I tried to explain that everything we are going through is God's will and we have to go through it all. She asked the question if i'm thankful that there are children starving all over the world. While i feel sorry for them and everyone suffering i think i was right in thanking God for all of it, because we understand we all have to have a knowledge and experience of evil.  Or am i wrong here? The scriptures do say to give thanks in/for all things.

stello

I do not think this is an easy question to answer.

You want to pray according to His Will; and your wife is concerned about those that do not have enough to eat, and a lot of these (especially young children) die because of the lack of food.

We are all of God, and He can do what He wants with His Creation. However, His Word reveals a lot about His Will for His Creation, especially mankind - and He is Love.

Jesus taught us many, many things in the New Testament about the Love of His and our Father.

God is Good. God is not evil.

The way I look at it is this:

1. We had a wicked heart and our minds must be changed into The Mind of Christ.
2. He gave His Elect a New (caring) heart, and is renewing their minds into The Mind of Christ.
3. The Elects' hearts and minds should be to pray as He wants them to, as Jesus did (but only as they are led by His Holy Spirit, and according to His Revealed Word).

So perhaps, we should pray in this manner:

Heavenly Father, thank you for giving us Life and for your Grace, Goodness and Love.
Help us to live our lives as you want us to, in The Faith of Jesus Christ.
Help us to pray correctly, as your Spirit guides us, for those that you desire us to pray for.
Your Will be done, not mine.

Ray stated that he was constantly in prayer - and prayed all day long for the things and people that burdened him.
 
Jesus asks us to put our burdens to Him.

I hope this helps a little.

Kind Regards.

George

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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Giving thanks for all things?
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2016, 05:42:42 PM »

When we thank God for the good and the bad, are we thanking him out of some perverted sense of loving evil things and pain? Its like when ray said, do christians need to LOVE terrorists, as in invite them into their homes, have dinner with them etc?? Or does 'loving your enemies,' that is AGAPE, carry a different meaning than 'PHILEO?'

Same thing applies here.

Do we thank God for all things, including the evil, because we enjoy suffering and pain? Or do we thank God for the necessary experiences of evil because while it may be unpleasent and painful, we know that it is producing something aioningly glorious within is?

We should be careful for how we word things if we are praying before others who do not understand where our gratitude stems from and lack the level of maturity in the faith that we have. Perhaps that is why Jesus said pray in secret and in your closet.

I thank God for all things in MY life, good and bad, because I know God knows what He's doing and that despite the evils I may experience, He loves me tremendously and is doing this for my benefit so that I too can inherit all things. I don't thank him for the evils because I enjoy them, want them, think myself morally superior. No. I shun the evil, if it weren't for God, my heart would be enveloped by its despair, for the evil is all too rampant on this earth. If I could, I would erase evil but I relent and surrender to God's wisdom for whom am I? I am dust but He made the heavens and the earth. Now i'm not insinuating that you think these things but I am sharing with you how I think.

I don't pray for the world because Jesus didn't.

I certainly feel for the suffering of this entire creation as I learn of some of the evils it is experiencing but other than that I tend to keep my eyes on Him and focus on dealing with the beast inside. If anything, all this suffering and evil has inspired and given me the desire to never be apart of causing suffering and evil onto others. My knowledge inspires me to do good.

As paul said, the ENTIRE CREATION GROANS AND TRAVAILS IN PAIN TOGETHER UNTIL NOW.

Maybe thanking God for your own trials because yo understand their necessicity is better and if you must include the world, then thank Him for not being a failure, for having a plan that though it may cause pain, will result in the salvation of all creation and the producing of many sons and daughters who bear His mark.

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

lareli

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Re: Giving thanks for all things?
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2016, 06:08:17 PM »

Did Christ pray in the garden before His arrest "if there can be another way then let this cup pass from me.. But if not, your will be done.." I may have butchered that quote if so forgive me.

But doesn't Christs prayer tell us that there is no other way? If it were possible to achieve His desired result of redeeming the world , without so much evil in this age then it would be done right? But as it is , His plan requires that you and I and everyone else go through what we go through in this life ... I personally don't believe that there is one drop of evil too much than is absolutely necessary in accomplishing His plan. And so, I understand thanking Him for all His perfect plan.

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stello

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Re: Giving thanks for all things?
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2016, 07:05:20 PM »

Thank you all for your responses. Let me make it clear, i don't thank God for everything that is happening because i some how enjoy the evil in this world, i believe it is absolutely necessary for us to go through all of it. I was thanking  God for making us and molding us into his sons and daughters.

George thanks for that simple but very effective prayer.

"Maybe thanking God for your own trials because yo understand their necessicity is better and if you must include the world, then thank Him for not being a failure, for having a plan that though it may cause pain, will result in the salvation of all creation and the producing of many sons and daughters who bear His mark." thanks for this Alex and you are 100% correct.

stello
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Kat

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Re: Giving thanks for all things?
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2016, 07:12:44 PM »


There is a passage of Scripture where Paul is speaking to brethren about eating food that was used in some sort of sacrificial ritual... certainly not the same thing as you are saying, but I think there is something to learn from it.

1Cor 8:7  But not everyone knows this truth. Some people have been so used to idols that to this day when they eat such food they still think of it as food that belongs to an idol; their conscience is weak, and they feel they are defiled by the food. (GNB)

By your wife's reaction I take it that she has not reached your level of understanding on these things, so what you may feel is appropriate to gives thanks for, she finds upsetting.

1Cor 8:11  In that case, the weak brother for whom the Messiah died is ruined by your knowledge.
v. 12  When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak consciences, you are sinning against the Messiah.
v. 13  Therefore, if food that I eat causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, in order to keep my brother from stumbling. (ISV)

So I think what is revealed in this passage is we have to be careful with those we are a witness to by our actions or words... I mean we should be sensitive to another discernment and not risk causing them to stumble because they do not understand things as we do.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 05:32:35 PM by Kat »
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octoberose

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Re: Giving thanks for all things?
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2016, 12:46:34 AM »

 It could be that your wife thought that you lacked compassion, and that was disturbing to her. I am not thankful for all the suffering and all the pain. I am thankful that God will work all things out till He is All in All and I am very aware that His ways are not my ways.   And I do pray for the world. I guess that's another discussion.
 Matthew 9:36  When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.
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santgem

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Re: Giving thanks for all things?
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2016, 04:19:21 AM »



When God the Father literally separated to a Son in a belly and Jesus has a God and Father,
Jesus teached us this manner of prayer.


Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
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cheekie3

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Re: Giving thanks for all things?
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2016, 04:20:47 AM »

octoberose -

You make a good point about compassion:

It could be that your wife thought that you lacked compassion, and that was disturbing to her. I am not thankful for all the suffering and all the pain. I am thankful that God will work all things out till He is All in All and I am very aware that His ways are not my ways.   And I do pray for the world. I guess that's another discussion.
 Matthew 9:36  When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.

Someone else has mentioned on this Post that Jesus did not pray for the world; and I thought these two Scriptures may help us to try to understand a little better on how we are to pray:

John 17:9: KJV:
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

John 18:36: KJV:
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

I think perhaps, these do not make it clear on how and for whom we should pray for - and perhaps, we should all read again Ray's Post on 'praying by God's Rules':

http://bible-truths.com/praying.htm

Unless I have disobeyed Our Heavenly Father, I also have, and still do, pray for those 'of' the world, as I have been burdened to.

Kind Regards.

George


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octoberose

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Re: Giving thanks for all things?
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2016, 08:57:49 AM »

When Jesus said he was not praying for the world it was near his death and he was praying for his disciples.   I just don't read that as " I have never prayed for the world and am not starting  now" but rather " You and I have spoken of the world many times- but right now  I'm praying for my followers" .   Is that reading into the text? It may be .  But we know Jesus was Sent to be the savior of whole world - it would be pretty odd if he didnt  pray for that which he had come to save. Yes, He went through the Jews but He always goes through a smaller group to eventually minister to the larger group.
  He also answered prayers and requests from gentiles. If he hadn't that would be a strong stand against ministering to 'the world' but he did . Even dogs deserve crumbs .
   How does this relate to thanking God for the suffering in the world or not?  A great deal of that suffering is the burden if a fallen world. They truly are like an animal who doesn't understand what is happening to them .  But WE should understand- we can thank Him for our trials - we can cry out to Him ! We know he will work all things together for the good of Those who love Him, those Called according to His Purpose. We know there is reserrection after death . Our suffering has a great deal of  meaning - and if it doesn 't well maybe our focus has shifted from the Cross to our comfort and cares.  W hich is all too easy to do.
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cheekie3

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Re: Giving thanks for all things?
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2016, 10:24:20 AM »

octoberose -

When Jesus said he was not praying for the world it was near his death and he was praying for his disciples.   I just don't read that as " I have never prayed for the world and am not starting  now" but rather " You and I have spoken of the world many times- but right now  I'm praying for my followers" .   Is that reading into the text? It may be .  But we know Jesus was Sent to be the savior of whole world - it would be pretty odd if he didnt  pray for that which he had come to save. Yes, He went through the Jews but He always goes through a smaller group to eventually minister to the larger group.
  He also answered prayers and requests from gentiles. If he hadn't that would be a strong stand against ministering to 'the world' but he did . Even dogs deserve crumbs .
   How does this relate to thanking God for the suffering in the world or not?  A great deal of that suffering is the burden if a fallen world. They truly are like an animal who doesn't understand what is happening to them .  But WE should understand- we can thank Him for our trials - we can cry out to Him ! We know he will work all things together for the good of Those who love Him, those Called according to His Purpose. We know there is reserrection after death . Our suffering has a great deal of  meaning - and if it doesn 't well maybe our focus has shifted from the Cross to our comfort and cares.  W hich is all too easy to do.

I agree that it is the sum of His Word that we should pay very close attention to - and you make very good points about Jesus the Saviour of the World.

We must not only love Our God with all that we have, but we must also love our neighbour (which is everyone else) as ourselves.

Above all Our God is Love, and we are to follow and obey His Commandments to Love each other and our neighbours. Love conquers evil, as evil never conquers evil.

Kind Regards,

George

« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 10:10:36 AM by cheekie3 »
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stello

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Re: Giving thanks for all things?
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2016, 12:31:33 PM »

Good point Kat, I can see how i was being insensitive. I pray that God will help me to be a good steward of the knowledge He has given me.

George you make a good point which is tied into the above.

I am still growing and i will trust God to guide and direct me. I made a mistake here with my prayer but i believe God is faithful to forgive me. Thank you all for your advice and encouragement.

I am thankful for you all!!  8)

stello
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Giving thanks for all things?
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2016, 03:01:26 PM »

octoberose -

You make a good point about compassion:

It could be that your wife thought that you lacked compassion, and that was disturbing to her. I am not thankful for all the suffering and all the pain. I am thankful that God will work all things out till He is All in All and I am very aware that His ways are not my ways.   And I do pray for the world. I guess that's another discussion.
 Matthew 9:36  When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.

Someone else has mentioned on this Post that Jesus did not pray for the world; and I thought these two Scriptures may help us to try to understand a little better on how we are to pray:

John 17:9: KJV:
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

John 18:36: KJV:
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

I think perhaps, these do not make it clear on how and for whom we should pray for - and perhaps, we should all read again Ray's Post on 'praying by God's Rules':

http://bible-truths.com/praying.htm

Unless I have disobeyed Our Heavenly Father, I also have, and still do, pray for those 'of' the world, as I have been burdened to.

Kind Regards.

George

I think you were right the first time George. But I am open if someone can show me where Jesus actually prayed directly for the world.

Joh 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Joh 17:11  And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Joh 17:14  I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Joh 17:15  I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
 
Joh 17:16  They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

These are not nice words about the world. The world's time is coming.
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cheekie3

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Re: Giving thanks for all things?
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2016, 03:52:59 PM »

Dennis -

You make an interesting Point about the 'world':

octoberose -

You make a good point about compassion:

It could be that your wife thought that you lacked compassion, and that was disturbing to her. I am not thankful for all the suffering and all the pain. I am thankful that God will work all things out till He is All in All and I am very aware that His ways are not my ways.   And I do pray for the world. I guess that's another discussion.
 Matthew 9:36  When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.

Someone else has mentioned on this Post that Jesus did not pray for the world; and I thought these two Scriptures may help us to try to understand a little better on how we are to pray:

John 17:9: KJV:
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

John 18:36: KJV:
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

I think perhaps, these do not make it clear on how and for whom we should pray for - and perhaps, we should all read again Ray's Post on 'praying by God's Rules':

http://bible-truths.com/praying.htm

Unless I have disobeyed Our Heavenly Father, I also have, and still do, pray for those 'of' the world, as I have been burdened to.

Kind Regards.

George

I think you were right the first time George. But I am open if someone can show me where Jesus actually prayed directly for the world.

Joh 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Joh 17:11  And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Joh 17:14  I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Joh 17:15  I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
 
Joh 17:16  They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

These are not nice words about the world. The world's time is coming.

I note that Jesus did not say 'I pray not for those men and women in or of the world' but 'I pray not for the world' - and I was going to mention this before, but decided not to - as it is not something that I think Ray taught on, with respect to 'prayer'.

It appears to me, that the 'world' may not be referring to 'any men and women in or of the world'.

If so, could it be referring to anything that is outside of 'The Kingdom of God' - which is another kingdom, 'The Kingdom of Satan' - and Jesus did confirm that Satan indeed had an undivided kingdom.

What do you think Dennis.

Kind Regards.

George

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John from Kentucky

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Re: Giving thanks for all things?
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2016, 08:17:14 PM »

During this current age, the time of the first fruits or Pentecost, Jesus is only working with and bringing salvation to His Elect, the few, the little flock.

The Many, the rest of mankind, will be saved in the ages to come, after His return to the Earth.

All will be saved, no one will be lost, each in the appointed time.
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Giving thanks for all things?
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2016, 10:26:29 PM »

I agree George, and I agree with John.
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lauriellen

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Re: Giving thanks for all things?
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2016, 12:08:12 AM »

Does not this scripture encourage us to pray for the world?
1Ti 2:1  First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, requests, and thanksgivings be offered to God for all people;
1Ti 2:2  for kings and all others who are in authority, that we may live a quiet and peaceful life with all reverence toward God and with proper conduct.
1Ti 2:3  This is good and it pleases God our Savior,

I think these scriptures make a pretty good case that Jesus did pray for people in the 'world':
Joh 17:20  Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Luk_6:28  Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you
Mat_5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Luk 23:34  Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 12:19:43 AM by lauriellen »
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cheekie3

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Re: Giving thanks for all things?
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2016, 08:36:51 AM »

lauriellen -

These Scriptures do indeed confirm that Jesus prayed for men, women and children:

Does not this scripture encourage us to pray for the world?
1Ti 2:1  First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, requests, and thanksgivings be offered to God for all people;
1Ti 2:2  for kings and all others who are in authority, that we may live a quiet and peaceful life with all reverence toward God and with proper conduct.
1Ti 2:3  This is good and it pleases God our Savior,

I think these scriptures make a pretty good case that Jesus did pray for people in the 'world':
Joh 17:20  Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Luk_6:28  Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you
Mat_5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Luk 23:34  Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

I think there must be a distinction between 'people' and the 'world'; in that, 'people' probably refers to men, women and children, whereas the 'world' probably refers to all that is not 'The Kingdom of God' (most likely 'the kingdom of Satan' or 'Babylon the great').

Kind Regards.

George
 
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John from Kentucky

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Re: Giving thanks for all things?
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2016, 03:09:29 PM »

Does not this scripture encourage us to pray for the world?
1Ti 2:1  First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, requests, and thanksgivings be offered to God for all people;
1Ti 2:2  for kings and all others who are in authority, that we may live a quiet and peaceful life with all reverence toward God and with proper conduct.
1Ti 2:3  This is good and it pleases God our Savior,

I think these scriptures make a pretty good case that Jesus did pray for people in the 'world':
Joh 17:20  Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Luk_6:28  Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you
Mat_5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Luk 23:34  Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

Re: your first section, the reason we are asked to pray for all people and rulers is found in 1Tim 2:2,  "that we may live a quiet and peaceful life..."  The prayers are for the Elect, the few, not for the salvation of the Many, at this time.
The Many are not going to be saved at this time.  They will go their own way for now and will die in their sins.  Their only hope is for a physical resurrection to judgment when they will be saved, in the future.

Your second section changes nothing about the timing of salvation.  God has already made His plans and they will not change.

First the Passover, when the Great Anointed One gave Himself for all.

Second, Pentecost or Feast of First Fruits, which has gone on for about two thousand years, when Jesus works with and saves the Elect few.

Finally, the Feast of Tabernacles or Great Fall Harvest, at the end of the ages, when salvation is given to the Many.  Only after the return of the Great King will the rest of humanity and the angels be healed and saved.  A time of wonderful blessings on all.
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