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Author Topic: MY NIECES WEDDING!?  (Read 4758 times)

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indianabob

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Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2016, 09:31:09 PM »

Well said Lauriellen,

God made us too weak to resist sin and then put the forbidden tree in the midst of the garden where we couldn't miss it and then sent Satan in to tease Eve and lead her into an "opportunity" to learn how weak she was. And Adam watched her do it... ::)
The purpose of this whole exercise is to compel us to come to understand that we NEED God in our lives to provide guidance and love and an example to TRY to follow. We then spend our whole lives, once we are chosen and given an earnest of God's spirit, repenting of our sins daily. We learn that God's spirit works when we use it, but then in short order we face other temptations and no matter how well we do there is always a greater challenge. We cannot live a sinless life apart from God's spirit in FULL measure and we will not have full measure until God changes us and we become spiritually composed persons.
I think Ray Smith once said that Jesus didn't sin because God didn't let him sin. There had to be a sinless redeemer and God doesn't play dice with HIS perfect plan. God knew from the beginning that HIS plan would be successful. There was never any question.

ole Indiana bob
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
« Reply #61 on: October 22, 2016, 10:28:39 PM »

Just my 2 cents worth....I see God as 'first cause'.....He created us, our hearts, all the circumstances that surround us, and bound us up in sin. I can't imagine that He didn't realize that all of this would CAUSE rapists, murderers, homosexuals, etc.....so He KNEW before the foundation....so to say it wasn't 'ordained' of God is just playing with words to me. All that is, is just exactly as he INTENDED it to be. All of the determination and effort in the universe can not change what God has already determined must be. Our hearts are like rivers of water, He turns them whichever way He desires. Why do we judge another mans' servent? God is the potter, who am I to say 'Why have you made so-and-so thus?' So what is the end of the matter? Just live. Do the best you can. Ask God to guide YOUR steps and then trust Him to do so. Don't judge how God directs someone elses' steps. Stop straining at the knat in your brothers' eye and worry about the beam in your own. None of us are perfect. None of us will be in this life. Stop judging people before the time, just because they sin differently than you. If God wants something changed, He is able. My hope is that He will at the appointed time.

Hi Lauri,

Ray did not believe God ordains rapists and neither do I. In scripture you will find that God predestines those in Christ Jesus and our good works. You don't find God predestining rapists or sin (and truth be told He really doesn't have to). Ray described the word 'ordain' as having a very complex and varied meaning in scripture including carrying the notion of 'blessing.' See Titus 1:5 and the call to ordain elders in every city. Ordaining rapists or sin by man means removing man's ability to choose and therefor the accountability nevermind implying God's blessing upon such acts which is blasphemous. So words matter and there is fine line in rightly understanding the Sovereignty of God. God tempts no man. God does not do evil. God is not ordaining rapists and sinners.

--------------------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3815.msg29733.html#msg29733

Why does God pre-ordain for certain men to rape little girls?
Why does He preordain for this to happen?
 
Lee
 

Dear Lee:
We must be careful how we use words and phrases and also be careful not
to draw fallacious conclusions from Scriptural Truths. The Bible nowhere says
that God "pre-ordained" such sins.
It says he has a fore-knowledge OF such
sins. Many people over the years have tried to force me into saying that God sins
and that God is evil, but I won't say it, because I don't believe it. God nowhere
says that He "ordains" sin, and so I don't say it either.

 
God did not "pre-ordain" me to eat Girl Scott cookies today, but I did. Man has
the ability to think, plan, create, imagine, and carry out these devised lusts of his
heart, and yes, God KNEW a long time ago just what we would do,  but nowhere
does it say that God "pre-ordained" our sins. We live and operate under law. We
automatically do certain things under certain stimuli. It does not need to be "pre-
ordained."
 


Maybe what you are really asking is why did God create humanity so that they would
sin under all of these different stimuli?  But that's a topic too big for an email. Besides,
I have covered these things many times in the articles on our site. If you look up ordain
or ordained in a concordance, you will find that God has ordained dozens of things in
the Scripture, but nowhere does it say He ordained particular sins.
God be with you,
Ray



Dear Lee:
    I understand your frustration, but you are still lacking understanding.
    When a parent gives his teenager a little slack as we say, he knows
    that to some degree his teenager will abuse that liberty and do some
    things that are wrong. When he does, is the parent at fault? Did the
    parent actually commit the sin?  Is the parent guilty of the sin? Should
    the parent go to jail for the sin of his son? It is not as cut and dry as
    you would like it to be.
    "I [the Lord] create EVIL...." (Isa. 4:7). Therefore, according to your
    simplistic approach to this subject, God IS EVIL, right?  If God creates
    evil, then HE IS EVIL, isn't He? How could it be any other way according to your
    reasoning?  If God creates a man who will rape a little girl, then GOD
    HIMSELF RAPED THAT LITTLE GIRL, right? If God planned it: He did it.
    Right?  Wrong.

    You would prefer that it be that simple and that crude, but it isn't. I am
    not denying that God had the foreknowledge of a particular rape, but I am
    not about to say that God pre-ordained that rape.
You can't conclude that:
    [1] God made humanity.  [2]  Humanity all sins.  [3] Therefore GOD IS SIN!
    The Scriptures tell us that "God CANNOT lie."  Yet we have several Scriptures
    that tell us God SENDS A LYING SPIRIT to deceive people. Therefore is God a LIAR
    when He tells us that He "CANNOT lie?"
    Let me help you with the answer:  Why is it wrong for one man to kill another
    man, but it is not wrong for God to kill a man? Several reasons:  [1] Intent of heart.
    God kills out of righteousness.  [2]  God kills for the welfare of the one He kills.
    [3] God has the power to bring back to life and rectify all wrongs and all evils,
    and is therefore FULLY JUSTIFIED IN ALL HIS WAYS.
     
    Hope the helps your understanding a little better.
    God be with you,
    Ray


Dear Sean and Forum:
 
Regarding your statement:  "Hi again Ray,
I think you've got me confused with the guy who sent the original
e-mail regarding this topic. I read it in the forum"
 
Yes, maybe I do have you confused with another. Since this hit the Forum it has been like a feeding frenzy. I have been getting all kinds of emails regarding my "contradiction." I will address this question later, as there is a whole lot more involved here than meets the eye with the word "ordained," which is used to represent nearly a dozen separate words in the Bible. When I wrote Part 2 of my "Lake of Fire' series seven years ago, I assure you that I did not have in mind that "God ORDAINED specific men to rape and cut the heads of off of specific children." That was the furtherest thing from my mind when I was specifically countering the Christian teaching that God DOES NOT KNOW IN ADVANCE what people will think or do. However, "fore-ordained," was not a proper choice of words to be used to describe God's "foreknowledge," which is something totally different from "fore-ordained."
 
It doesn't effect the principle of the teaching, but I will change out the word "fore-ordained"
 
What God "ordains" in the Bible carries the connotation of almost putting His "blessing" on the thing that is ordained. But as we cannot find anywhere in the Scriptures where God specifically ordains a specific SIN of humanity, such raping a little girl, I naturally took offense when the initial question in this little debate asked, why does God ORDAIN dirty old men to rape little children? (or words to that effect). There is a difference between God "fore-knowing" something and "fore-ORDAINING" something, although many refuse to see it.
 
Hence we have such doctrines as "God cannot look upon sin," which is the result of a miss-translation in the book of Habakkuk. Likewise it is untrue that the sacrificing of children to the god Molech "never entered God's MIND."  The proper translation is "HEART." Is there a difference between mind and heart? Yes. Is there a difference between God not tempting any man, but yet sends temptations? Yes. Is there a difference between God "CANNOT lie"  and sending a "LYING spirit?" Yes there is, but I don't have time to do a whole paper on this subject right now, because I am far behind in more important things. People have tried by the hundreds and thousands to trip me up over the years to insinuate that if what I teach regarding the foreknowledge and Sovereignty of God is true, then they present a dozen ways in which that would mean God is the AUTHOR OF SIN, or that God Himself IS EVIL. If God KNOWS in advance that people will commit certain sins, then isn't he "condoning" such sin? If they are a necessary part of His Plan and Purpose do they not work and work good. Therefore are not all these things "good?" Therefore isn't raping little children and cutting their heads off, a GOOD THING?  Can you see where this kind of thinking leads?
 
I have no objection to a question like: "Why does God allow evil in the world?" I can answer that question. But, someone asks: "Why does God ORDAIN men to rape children?" that offends my spirit.. I will cover it in a future paper, but I just don't have the time right now, but I also didn't want everyone to think that I am avoiding the question or the many responses to it.   Hope you will all be patient.
 
God be with you,
Ray


My personal understanding and quiet possibly my opinion is that the words predestine, preordain, foreordain, etc... imply the direct active working of God in the individual to accomplish God's plan (by way of His holy spirit in us--He must increase but I must decrease). The reason this is done in the context of salvation is that man's condition (by God's wisdom) makes it God's responsibility to save man Himself as mankind left to its own devices is incapable of obeying God let alone saving itself. However, when it comes to rape, murder--SIN--and sinners, this very same condition that prevents man from saving himself now makes him fully capable of doing all these sinful things with little to no outside influence and thus removing the necessity for God to preordain, predestin, etc.. any of these acts or actors. As ray said, Man practically volunteer's to sin day in and day out unless God supernaturally intervenes in the individuals life. But lets suppose you do say God does these things, predestines the sins of man, then you are saying God is directly acting upon these individuals to remove their choice and accountability (in the very same way that man has no choice but to be saved by God and gets no glory for it because it is God's responsibility--God predestined the human race for salvation!) and then you have made God into an evil sinful God. Which we know He isn't so this cannot be true and it isn't. Its why you don't find the idea anywhere in scripture. God does not ordain or predestine rapists, murders, etc... He predestines the elect, He preordains them, etc.. this requires God's direct supernatural intervention otherwise there would be no elect--there would be no salvation for man.

Just a quick note, this change to the lake of fire series part 2 which ray said he would make was never completed by ray. Unfortunately the error still remains and the line still reads to this day that God forordained adam to sin. Which is simply not true as ray clarifies in his emails.

God bless,
Alex

« Last Edit: October 23, 2016, 12:06:09 AM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

lauriellen

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Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
« Reply #62 on: October 23, 2016, 04:37:53 AM »

I will use Ray's own words: ..."That was the furthest thing from my mind when I was specifically countering the Christian teaching that God DOES NOT KNOW IN ADVANCE what people will think or do. However, "fore-ordained," was not a proper choice of words to be used to describe God's "foreknowledge," which is something totally different from "fore-ordained."
 It doesn't effect the principle of the teaching, but I will change out the word "fore-ordained"

Ray said "It doesn't effect the principle of the teaching".....

I'll just leave it there....
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cheekie3

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Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
« Reply #63 on: October 23, 2016, 08:46:29 AM »

Dave in Tenn -

Good Points:

I've had preconceived determinations all my life.  I still do.  But I've also found myself over and over violating those determinations.  When I say they have never worked for me, I mean just that.  If I screw up and do the right thing on occasion, it's not because I determined in my mind and doubled-down on my will power.  It's because my heart and mind were changed.  Sometimes these changes have been more or less instantaneous.  Other times, they have occurred in stages over many, many years.  Either way, it is Him working in me.     

If preconceived determinations work for you, then who am I to complain?  That's how He has formed you.  Since they don't work so well for me, who am I to complain?  Don't think I am without them.  Just understand that my "experience" with them fails on two levels.  First, that I am always RIGHT in my preconceived determinations.  Second that I can do what seems right, (and likely is) but still find myself falling short--not just in other things, but in the DOING of what seems right.  The Pharisee probably wasn't like the publican.  But he didn't repent of what he WAS.   

Perhaps, the pharisee was trained by men - and the publican knew in his heart what he was.

Kind Regards.

George
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The Acts of The Apostles 1:8 (NIBEV) "But you shall receive power when His Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

cheekie3

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Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
« Reply #64 on: October 23, 2016, 09:33:17 AM »

All -

It seems that we are not of one mind with regards the issue of Our Heavenly Father's foreknowledge verses that which He preordained.

Let us see if we can agree on the definitions:

1. Foreknowledge - He knows all that will happen, before it happens - and it cannot change.
2. Preordained - Specific events that He planned and executed as part of His Plan for Salvation.

Whether, we all agree, on the above definitions - there is another aspect that Our Heavenly Father has stated He has done:

3. Predetermined - He prepares the paths that we must all walk in (that includes everyone, not just His Elect in this Age of Grace, or those in the Old Testament who were His Prophets, etc).

I think that some of us are referring to 3 above, and I believe this gets lost in discussing either or both 1 & 2 above.

I have a son who is unhappy and as I cannot live his life for him or make his choices for him, I pray earnestly for him (and ask, seek and knock on His door, each and every day without ceasing, that He change my son and give Him Life), knowing that He prepares my sons steps that he should walk in them, and that only He can enable my son to change his attitude and lifestyle. Whatever I do, or not do, is not the issue. The way my son currently lives his life, is entirely the responsibility of Our Heavenly Father; and yes, my son, is accountable for his life. Our Heavenly Father has predetermined the steps that we all must take each and every day.

To me, 3 above, includes the steps of rapists, etc, in that, they had to walk the steps they did, and the circumstances which were outside of the rapists' control, so the choice these rapists made, could not be other than they were.

What is the end game? Will not Our Heavenly Father cleanse and save these rapists, and will they not truly repent of all their sins? Will Our Heavenly Father not heal and save those that have been raped?

We all agree that raping is sinful and wrong.

Ray stated, that given the same circumstances, we would all have done as Adam, or as Eve. If we follow that principle, could we honestly know for sure, that given the same lifestyle and circumstances of these rapists, we would not do the same.

We all accept that evil is necessary for His Plan to make us all into His image.

The Scriptures tell us that He makes vessels of Honour and Dishonour.

We know that only in Him and by Him, are any of us able to not sin.

I have recently become a Vegan, as I have discovered how the animals that we all eat are treated - and I am wondering why I did not do this earlier, as Daniel lived like this, and so did all who lived before the flood.

I have seen footage of lions, living peacefully with tigers and bears, and I have seen dogs kiss fish in lakes and vice versa - and I have seen how happy freed pigs, cows, chickens are when they are free to roam; and I am amazed by all of this - and I am wondering, perhaps, this is how we all lived prior to the flood.

I hope I have helped some of us a little, and not caused any confusion, offense, or division.

Kind Regards.

George

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The Acts of The Apostles 1:8 (NIBEV) "But you shall receive power when His Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

Hellisfake

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Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
« Reply #65 on: October 23, 2016, 10:43:08 AM »

I raised the issue of being persecuted forour faith, earlier in this forum. Here is a real life example to be persecuted . You will have to pay a price if you do not go to this wedding, are you prepared to pay it or do you want to go the comfortable way?
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Hellisfake

Dave in Tenn

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Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
« Reply #66 on: October 23, 2016, 05:54:14 PM »

I'll just add before I slink away:  He'll have to pay a price if he DOES go too. 

Just me talking, but if I were to literally go against my mother and sisters...it would be because I went, not because I didn't go.  Where is the sword in that event?  Still two-edged?  I'm not going to make life decisions based on whether or not they will get me persecuted.  No matter WHAT I do, I'll catch some grief for it. 

Jesus is Lord, and He will judge rightly. 
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octoberose

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Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
« Reply #67 on: October 24, 2016, 02:15:26 AM »

Thank you George- -and I relate to everything you said about your son. I'm going to start a new thread concerning veganism and Daniel so we can maybe change the subject .
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
« Reply #68 on: October 24, 2016, 09:30:36 AM »

Sometimes we ask the wrong question:  "Would Jesus Attend a Gay Wedding?"
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jeetkunejimi

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Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
« Reply #69 on: October 04, 2018, 01:31:20 PM »

Just to put closure on this topic, when it came down to the wedding I got sick with flu and couldn't attend anyway. So I guess you could say God kept me out of it and decided the matter for me. My brother went and said it was a great day. My niece is still happily married to her wife/husband lol, and she's a very nice person. It is w
hat it is.
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John from Kentucky

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Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
« Reply #70 on: October 04, 2018, 02:08:16 PM »

The word "married" does not apply to two women or two men.

The concept is barbaric.  It is a great evil and will be burned out of existence by the Consuming Fire.
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Prune Soleiado

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Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
« Reply #71 on: October 11, 2018, 06:32:38 AM »

Everybody know homosexuality is an abomination. Even the homosexual married ones. For we all are Godís creatures, we all come from God through Christ, so even non believers, deep inside their hearts, disagree with homosexuality.
Theyíre just being hypocrites, they lie about their acceptation of what is unacceptable. They are Satanís children.
Godís children donít buy this lie for the price of their nowadays judgement and salvation is too high.
Godís children live by the Word of God which is Truth.
The Word of God is Spirit because God is Spirit.
Godís children live by the Spirit of the Lord, the spirit of wisdom and the spirit of understanding, the spirit of counsel and the spirit of might, the spirit of knowledge and the spirit of the fear of the LORD.
Are we still talking spiritual ?
Are we really living in peace among non believers ?
Let our Yes be Yes and our No be No. Letís tell frankly but with calm and love and peace to people when our hearts are troubled with their ways of living if they want to yoke us with them.
What do you fear? To be hated when you love? To be rejected when you forgive? To be mocked when you want to share?
Remember agapeo love. Remember that God ę agapeo Ľ the world so much He gave His Son as a sacrifice to show His Pure Love.
Godís children donít have to go to a lesbian wedding if they feel it doesnít serve the glory of their Father.
But who are we humans to choose? Are humans to decide where the spirit of the Lord should bring them?
If you have Christ in you, then He will decide for you so God is glorified. All is according to Godís marvelous plan through Christ.
Godís children are to be in the world even though they donít belong to this world anymore. They are a living testimony of Godís salvation through Christ.
So if we refuse to participate to those pagan celebrations, we can at least tell and show pagan people we agapeo them anyway, which is serving them the exact way the good samaritan takes care of the abandoned and wounded one.
Matthew 5:14:
ďYou are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Ľ
Letís be that light full of Godís Love and donít hide it when we disagree.
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Rocco

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Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
« Reply #72 on: October 12, 2018, 04:19:19 AM »

Ask yourself this question, Where would I draw the line and absolutely would not attend? Maybe if it was at a "New Age" temple  where song and dance to mother earth were performed or maybe a Luciferian (Satanic) church or a thousand other scenarios. Our Father has drawn the line for us so we don't have to guess, the ongoing battle is in our mind which so easily justifies disobedience. King Saul faced a similar and common dilemma and failed, the result was not good; 1 Sam 15:22-23

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Let the dead bury (marry) their own dead

Harsh stuff but Jesus said take up your cross and follow him. We all will pray for you as you will for us when we face our temptations.

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