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[Hellisfake]

Hello friends! I got a question: We are commanded to pull out from Babylon churches and that system, but is it always so for all selected, I mean, is it always that case that you have to go that route, or can we find one example of someone who God gave the sound faith right away?
Because if it is so that God always takes us through Babylon, what should we do with our children? Encourage them to go to Babylon's daughters?  for if they do not,  they will not be among those selected?

It may already exist another thread on the subject, please get me that link

God bless:)

[lareli]

I don't think you need to encourage your children to go to Babylons daughters, as you put it. Your children were already born into Babylon.

Is that right?

Unless you think Babylon,( the 'her' in 'come out of her' )is just the Christian church and not the church of the carnal nature which we are all born into whether we're Christians or Buddhists or Muslims etc. etc.

[Terry]

I've often thought of that very thing,
 thanks Largeli
Terry

[Hellisfake]

I don't think you need to encourage your children to go to Babylons daughters, as you put it. Your children were already born into Babylon.

Is that right?

Unless you think Babylon,( the 'her' in 'come out of her' )is just the Christian church and not the church of the carnal nature which we are all born into whether we're Christians or Buddhists or Muslims etc. etc.

I allways thought that Babylon was the religious system in the world.  But why dosent the Lord reveals the these truths as we can read here on this site, when he first must meet the Lord,
 it seems that one must go through a time in the traditional church first, before he revels this truth about salvation of all, and free will and so on...?     

[Kat]

I'm thinking that the NT Scripture is speaking of Babylon as the church system in particular, but I also think of Babylon as the whole worldly system in general too, as it has the proclivity towards carnality. We do have to have an experience of good and evil in this life, and that comes about from living deceived along with the rest of the world about the truth and the real carnal condition of things.

Tit 3:3  For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another

I don't think I would put my children in a system that I understand to be filled with inaccuracies with the assumption that might be the only way they can become God's chosen... the elect were already determined from the beginning and there really is no way to bring that about or prevent it anyway. I think our responsibility is to teach our children the truth, on a continual basic the best you can.

Mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Flanagan]

Prov 22:6 "Raise up your children according to the way" That's God's command to us all. That way if and when they do stray they'll always Know the way home. They'll always be welcome when they choose to come home. God's grace through our Lord Jesus

[Dave in Tenn]

There is one name given by which men must be saved.  It is not Buddha, Muhammad or Shiva.  Jesus is Lord.  Nobody comes to the Father except by Him.  It's neither unfair nor outside the ways and means of God to choose from among THE CHURCH, HIS CHURCH. 

Hellisfake, teach your own children.  Give them what they can bear when they can bear it, and be patient.  They are teaching you too.  We're told to give ANSWER and NOBODY asks better questions better than children.  NOBODY.  You cannot give them either faith or a spiritual mind.  Whatever you tell them--even the truth--they will not understand until they do.  They'll have to live.  Life includes failure.  Failure is not eternal.  Jesus is Lord.  That's the way it works.

Who knows but when they have passed through the fire they might outstrip you in every virtue, understanding, and aspect of the fruit of His Spirit.  Any good parent would hope for that, I'd think.       

[Dave in Tenn]

Why dosent the Lord reveals the these truths as we can read here on this site, when he first must meet the Lord,
 it seems that one must go through a time in the traditional church first, before he revels this truth about salvation of all, and free will and so on...?   

Again, because that's the way it works.  Besides, He DID reveal the truths about the salvation of all and the sovereignty of God.  How else would we know them, if He hadn't?  This isn't some sort of "gnosticism".  The truth about these things has been obscured, both spiritually and literally.  We've read over these same passages (most of us, I'm guessing) without ever seeing them, yet there they are in plain sight.  The miracle is in having our eyes UN-CLOSED, not in gaining some special knowledge.

The rest, concerning the Kingdom, He taught in parables with the express intention of hiding the truths and only revealing them to those the Father gave him.  He never intended to "reveal these truths" to everybody saying unto Him "Lord, Lord." 

[cheekie3]

Hellisfake -

Interesting question:

Hello friends! I got a question: We are commanded to pull out from Babylon churches and that system, but is it always so for all selected, I mean, is it always that case that you have to go that route, or can we find one example of someone who God gave the sound faith right away?
Because if it is so that God always takes us through Babylon, what should we do with our children? Encourage them to go to Babylon's daughters?  for if they do not,  they will not be among those selected?

It may already exist another thread on the subject, please get me that link

God bless:)

I am not not sure to what kingdom we are born into during this Age of Grace.

We are all born, and then we are educated in our societies which may or may not have any beliefs in God.

So let us assume that we are all born into The Kingdom of God.

What happened after we were born?

We were taught by our fathers and mothers and the society we live in. We followed and did what our parents did and taught us to do.

Then He drags us out of our society and starts to reveal His Truths to us by His Holy Spirit.

He Commands us to come out of Babylon.

Ray taught that we left our first love, and we need to put our first love back into its Divine position to Love and Obey Our Heavenly Father; and I have a difficulty in understanding when I left my first Love - as I know since He dragged me Out, there has not been a day that I have not focused on Him, to learn His Truths and do Right and to please Him.

So, I do not know for sure, when I left my first Love - perhaps, it was shortly after I was born, as I did not know anything, and I was brought up by my parents into living how my society lived.

In other words, perhaps, I was born into The Kingdom of God, then I left it because I never knew any better and obeyed Babylon. Then, He heard my cries because of my affliction in Babylon (which He burdened me to cry out to Him), and He dragged me back to Himself (back to my first Love).

I am not trying to teach here - I am trying to understand how we all leave our first love, and when we realise this, and how we get back to our first Love.

I look at this as something fundamental, in that it is about who we choose to obey (or if you will, worship) - if we choose to obey His Commandments and do what He says, we cannot also obey Babylon.

Babylon is in the world, and is the world, and it is governed by mankind.

Some have stated that Babylon means 'baby long time' - but I have not found any confirmation on this.

Perhaps His mature Sons and Daughters must now leave the doctrines of The Old Covenant behind them, and enter into His Rest in The New Covenant, as non-Babylonians as His Called Out Called Out People.

His Children are in the world but not of the world.

The world is ruled by evil - and Satan is evil.

He rules in His Love - as above all else, God is Love.

1 John 5:8 (KJV):
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

I hope this helps.

Kind Regards.

George

[Kat]

Ray taught that we left our first love, and we need to put our first love back into its Divine position to Love and Obey Our Heavenly Father; and I have a difficulty in understanding when I left my first Love - as I know since He dragged me Out, there has not been a day that I have not focused on Him, to learn His Truths and do Right and to please Him.

So, I do not know for sure, when I left my first Love - perhaps, it was shortly after I was born, as I did not know anything, and I was brought up by my parents into living how my society lived.

In other words, perhaps, I was born into The Kingdom of God, then I left it because I never knew any better and obeyed Babylon. Then, He heard my cries because of my affliction in Babylon (which He burdened me to cry out to Him), and He dragged me back to Himself (back to my first Love).

I am not trying to teach here - I am trying to understand how we all leave our first love, and when we realise this, and how we get back to our first Love.

I look at this as something fundamental, in that it is about who we choose to obey (or if you will, worship) - if we choose to obey His Commandments and do what He says, we cannot also obey Babylon.

Hi George, what/when is the 'first love' we have of God? I would say it's when we learned, for most of us that was in the church, who God really is. The church does present the gospel message about Christ coming in the flesh and dying as our Savior... not saying they have the details right, but it's usually in church that we first really learn about God. Most of us, I would think, even declared our love of God by a water baptism and joining that church as a member. That I believe is our 'first love.'

Now the falling from that first love comes when we begin to learn and obey the doctrine of men, taught to us in the church... I guess some don't even stay in church very long, but when they go back out into a worldly life or whatever, that is when we fall from that first love. So if you see what I'm saying it's when we lose that first, almost childish, love and adoration for God.

Now if you think you never lost that love, well then you must not believed you were ever deceived as the whole world is (Rev 12:9) and that's another story. But like the prodigal son we all leave our first love of God, one way or another we are pulled down, by serving the church or in some way serving our own carnal desires in the world... that is building our false spiritual house upon the shifting sands.

Mat 7:26  "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:
v. 27  and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."

But if we are chosen, we do not remain deceived, and all those false doctrines come falling down and then by the Spirit indwelling we build our house on the solid foundation of The Rock and then nothing can shake us.

Mat 7:24  "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
v. 25  and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

Here is from the LoF 14. 'The Beast Within' where Ray taught on this.

http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html ------------------------

What an astonishing truth it is, that God CAUSES all those destined from the foundation of the world, to be chosen in Christ, that they should "fall away" from the Truth and "leave their first love" before they can be truly spiritually converted. Yet this is the plain declaration of Scripture.
v
Jesus prophesied that all who will become overcomers will have first fallen away temporarily by leaving their first love:

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against you, because you [the seven-in-one golden candlestick church of God that is, was, and will be] have LEFT YOUR FIRST LOVE" (Rev. 2:4).

Jesus Himself calls this leaving of our first love, a falling away:

"Remember therefore from whence you ARE FALLEN, and REPENT…" (Rev. 2:5).
v
We learned that leaving one’s first love is falling from love. But there’s more. Whatever one puts in place of true worship not only displaces us from our first love, but it also causes us to FALL FROM GRACE!

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, and be not entangled gain with the yoked of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, [sounds important…] that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you NOTHING. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do THE WHOLE LAW [Abraham was circumcised, but Moses taught it AS A LAW that HAD to be obeyed]. Christ is become of NO EFFECT unto you, whosoever of you are [Gk: ‘are’ should be‘attempt to be’] justified by LAW; ye [‘ALL of you’] are FALLEN FROM GRACE."
v
Paul wasn’t telling the unbelieving world that "ye are yet carnal." Nor was Jesus telling the world that they had "left the first love." No, Paul and Jesus are both telling THE CHURCH that they are "yet carnal and have left their first love"! In other words, AFTER coming into a church, AFTER they have accepted Christ, AFTER they have pursued their walk with God, AFTER they have built a spiritual house upon the sand, AFTER they have become indoctrinated with the commandments of men and the traditions of men, can one fall away and be in a position to actually spiritually SEE THE BEAST WITHIN! SEE the man of sin and the son of perdition. See your carnal-minded, God hating, SINS. You and I and all who have be enlightened by God’s word and our own failures in life, can surely see that we are all spiritually, WILD BEASTS.

If you insist that: "Ray! I don’t see myself as a spiritual BEAST, or a man of SIN, or the son of PERDITION [destruction]." Well, all I can to say is to parrot Paul: "YE ARE YET CARNAL."
v
You all know the parable. The son of a rich man wanted his inheritance NOW. And so he went into a far country and wasted his inheritance with riotous living—doing what seemed RIGHT in his own eyes. Enjoying life, having a good time. When he was physically and morally broke, he took a job slopping the pigs, and finally eating the slop of the pigs, himself. His selfish, carnal, house built on shifting sands FELL! "And GREAT was the fall thereof."

He had "left his first love" of his Father who obliged him in his "free will" decision to pursue his own happiness. But now, with his face in the watery slop of the pigs, he sees his reflection looking back at him—a BEAST—a man of great sin—a son in the state of spiritual perdition. What will he do?

He said:

"I will arise and go to my Father, and will say unto Him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before Thee, And am no more worthy to be called Thy son: make me as one of Thy hired servants… But the Father said to His servant, Bring forth the best robe [‘…for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints,' Rev. 19:8], and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand…

…[‘And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph’s hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck; And he made him to ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt,’ (Gen. 41:42-43). "To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with Me {second chariot from Christ}…" (Rev. 3:21), "And to he that overcomes, and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations {ALL of them, not just Egypt}]…

…For this my son was [spiritually] DEAD, and is alive again; he was LOST [pollumi—lost, destroyed, vanished] and is found. And they began to be merry" (Luke 15-11-24).
v
Whenever we "fall," we leave our "first love." For spiritual falling IS, LEAVING LOVE. Jesus said that when we leave our first love we are to ‘remember from whence we are FALLEN…’ Love itself has not failed us, but we have failed love, for true love is not capable of failure or falling:

"Charity [Old English for ‘love’] never fails…" (I Cor. 13:08).

Jesus reprimands us for "falling" from love in Rev. 2:5. Interestingly, the word translated "fails" in I Cor. 13:08 is the very same word translated "fallen" in Rev. 2:5. And so, "love never FALLS," but before we are saved, we will fall.

Why is it that this Scriptural truth is not taught in the Church? Simple: Most in the church have not as yet experienced "leaving their first love." Therefore, they are still deceived, and CANNOT see the beast within. They are still in the process of constructing their spiritual house upon the sand. Most will never see the beast in this lifetime.
v
"And He beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The Stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the Head of the corner? Whomsoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever It shall fall, It will GRIND HIM TO POWDER."

When we fall on the Stone (Jesus), we are broken. Or as John tells us in Revelation,

"And I saw one of his heads as it were WOUNDED TO DEATH…" (Rev. 13:3).

Yes, when we fall on Christ we are broken, we are wounded (by the "sword" of God—Rev. 13:14 vs. Heb. 4:12). This is our human attempt at salvation. But then we fall, and our "deadly wound [which we received by the Word of God] was healed" (Rev. 13:3), we went back into the world, back into Babylon, thus leaving our first love. When the wound of the Sword of God’s Word that had slain us, is healed, we fall from the love of God, and we again turn our love to the world from which we came.

But here’s the good news concerning this stone. If we are among the chosen that overcome, then the Stone falls ON US, and our spiritual house built upon the sand comes crashing down. And when Jesus falls on us, He GRINDS US [along with all of our idols of the heart] TO POWDER!
v
THANK GOD, that I (L. Ray Smith) had fallen away, left my first love, looked back, forsook the Lord, and watched my house upon the sand come crashing down! Only then was I able to stand upon the sand of the sea, and see the beast within, the man of sin, the son of perdition, and Satan the devil who DECEIVED ME!

But NOW, "I am crucified WITH Christ: nevertheless I live: yet not I, but Christ lives IN ME: and the life which I now life in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God, who loved ME [and YOU], and gave Himself for ME [and YOU]" (Gal. 2:20).

In conclusion:

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard BEHIND me a great voice, as of a trumpet… And I turned to see the voice that spoke with ME. And being TURNED, I saw seven gold candlesticks; [the complete church of God in all generations, with MY sins outlined in each and every one of them] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and His eyes were as a flame of fire; [PURGING all who look upon Him] And His feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned [refined] in a furnace; and His voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in His right hand seven stars: and out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was as the SUN SHINING IN HIS STRENGTH [no longer a physical body with HOLES in it].

And when I saw Him [in my SPIRIT] I fell at His feet as DEAD. And He laid His right hand upon ME [as He will upon YOU], saying unto ME [and unto YOU],

FEAR NOT" (Rev. 1:10-17).

Truly:  "We have seen the enemy and he is US."
------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lareli]

There is one name given by which men must be saved.  It is not Buddha, Muhammad or Shiva.  Jesus is Lord.  Nobody comes to the Father except by Him.  It's neither unfair nor outside the ways and means of God to choose from among THE CHURCH, HIS CHURCH. 
     

Dave just to clarify... Are you saying that the Father only chooses His elect from among the mainstream, false religion, Christian church? Meaning that the Father does not choose people to 'come out of' other false religions and into a true knowledge of the One True God?

Not saying I disagree, but just wanting clarification.

[cheekie3]

Kat -

Thank you for taking the time to respond so thoroughly; and I will re-read Ray's 'The Beast Within':

Ray taught that we left our first love, and we need to put our first love back into its Divine position to Love and Obey Our Heavenly Father; and I have a difficulty in understanding when I left my first Love - as I know since He dragged me Out, there has not been a day that I have not focused on Him, to learn His Truths and do Right and to please Him.

So, I do not know for sure, when I left my first Love - perhaps, it was shortly after I was born, as I did not know anything, and I was brought up by my parents into living how my society lived.

In other words, perhaps, I was born into The Kingdom of God, then I left it because I never knew any better and obeyed Babylon. Then, He heard my cries because of my affliction in Babylon (which He burdened me to cry out to Him), and He dragged me back to Himself (back to my first Love).

I am not trying to teach here - I am trying to understand how we all leave our first love, and when we realise this, and how we get back to our first Love.

I look at this as something fundamental, in that it is about who we choose to obey (or if you will, worship) - if we choose to obey His Commandments and do what He says, we cannot also obey Babylon.

Hi George, what/when is the 'first love' we have of God? I would say it's when we learned, for most of us that was in the church, who God really is. The church does present the gospel message about Christ coming in the flesh and dying as our Savior... not saying they have the details right, but it's usually in church that we first really learn about God. Most of us, I would think, even declared our love of God by a water baptism and joining that church as a member. That I believe is our 'first love.'

Now the falling from that first love comes when we begin to learn and obey the doctrine of men, taught to us in the church... I guess some don't even stay in church very long, but when they go back out into a worldly life or whatever, that is when we fall from that first love. So if you see what I'm saying it's when we lose that first, almost childish, love and adoration for God.

Now if you think you never lost that love, well then you must not believed you were ever deceived as the whole world is (Rev 12:9) and that's another story. But like the prodigal son we all leave our first love of God, one way or another we are pulled down, by serving the church or in some way serving our own carnal desires in the world... that is building our false spiritual house upon the shifting sands.

Mat 7:26  "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:
v. 27  and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."

But if we are chosen, we do not remain deceived, and all those false doctrines come falling down and then by the Spirit indwelling we build our house on the solid foundation of The Rock and then nothing can shake us.

Mat 7:24  "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
v. 25  and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

Here is from the LoF 14. 'The Beast Within' where Ray taught on this.

http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html ------------------------

What an astonishing truth it is, that God CAUSES all those destined from the foundation of the world, to be chosen in Christ, that they should "fall away" from the Truth and "leave their first love" before they can be truly spiritually converted. Yet this is the plain declaration of Scripture.
v
Jesus prophesied that all who will become overcomers will have first fallen away temporarily by leaving their first love:

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against you, because you [the seven-in-one golden candlestick church of God that is, was, and will be] have LEFT YOUR FIRST LOVE" (Rev. 2:4).

Jesus Himself calls this leaving of our first love, a falling away:

"Remember therefore from whence you ARE FALLEN, and REPENT…" (Rev. 2:5).
v
We learned that leaving one’s first love is falling from love. But there’s more. Whatever one puts in place of true worship not only displaces us from our first love, but it also causes us to FALL FROM GRACE!

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, and be not entangled gain with the yoked of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, [sounds important…] that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you NOTHING. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do THE WHOLE LAW [Abraham was circumcised, but Moses taught it AS A LAW that HAD to be obeyed]. Christ is become of NO EFFECT unto you, whosoever of you are [Gk: ‘are’ should be‘attempt to be’] justified by LAW; ye [‘ALL of you’] are FALLEN FROM GRACE."
v
Paul wasn’t telling the unbelieving world that "ye are yet carnal." Nor was Jesus telling the world that they had "left the first love." No, Paul and Jesus are both telling THE CHURCH that they are "yet carnal and have left their first love"! In other words, AFTER coming into a church, AFTER they have accepted Christ, AFTER they have pursued their walk with God, AFTER they have built a spiritual house upon the sand, AFTER they have become indoctrinated with the commandments of men and the traditions of men, can one fall away and be in a position to actually spiritually SEE THE BEAST WITHIN! SEE the man of sin and the son of perdition. See your carnal-minded, God hating, SINS. You and I and all who have be enlightened by God’s word and our own failures in life, can surely see that we are all spiritually, WILD BEASTS.

If you insist that: "Ray! I don’t see myself as a spiritual BEAST, or a man of SIN, or the son of PERDITION [destruction]." Well, all I can to say is to parrot Paul: "YE ARE YET CARNAL."
v
You all know the parable. The son of a rich man wanted his inheritance NOW. And so he went into a far country and wasted his inheritance with riotous living—doing what seemed RIGHT in his own eyes. Enjoying life, having a good time. When he was physically and morally broke, he took a job slopping the pigs, and finally eating the slop of the pigs, himself. His selfish, carnal, house built on shifting sands FELL! "And GREAT was the fall thereof."

He had "left his first love" of his Father who obliged him in his "free will" decision to pursue his own happiness. But now, with his face in the watery slop of the pigs, he sees his reflection looking back at him—a BEAST—a man of great sin—a son in the state of spiritual perdition. What will he do?

He said:

"I will arise and go to my Father, and will say unto Him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before Thee, And am no more worthy to be called Thy son: make me as one of Thy hired servants… But the Father said to His servant, Bring forth the best robe [‘…for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints,' Rev. 19:8], and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand…

…[‘And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph’s hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck; And he made him to ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt,’ (Gen. 41:42-43). "To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with Me {second chariot from Christ}…" (Rev. 3:21), "And to he that overcomes, and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations {ALL of them, not just Egypt}]…

…For this my son was [spiritually] DEAD, and is alive again; he was LOST [pollumi—lost, destroyed, vanished] and is found. And they began to be merry" (Luke 15-11-24).
v
Whenever we "fall," we leave our "first love." For spiritual falling IS, LEAVING LOVE. Jesus said that when we leave our first love we are to ‘remember from whence we are FALLEN…’ Love itself has not failed us, but we have failed love, for true love is not capable of failure or falling:

"Charity [Old English for ‘love’] never fails…" (I Cor. 13:08).

Jesus reprimands us for "falling" from love in Rev. 2:5. Interestingly, the word translated "fails" in I Cor. 13:08 is the very same word translated "fallen" in Rev. 2:5. And so, "love never FALLS," but before we are saved, we will fall.

Why is it that this Scriptural truth is not taught in the Church? Simple: Most in the church have not as yet experienced "leaving their first love." Therefore, they are still deceived, and CANNOT see the beast within. They are still in the process of constructing their spiritual house upon the sand. Most will never see the beast in this lifetime.
v
"And He beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The Stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the Head of the corner? Whomsoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever It shall fall, It will GRIND HIM TO POWDER."

When we fall on the Stone (Jesus), we are broken. Or as John tells us in Revelation,

"And I saw one of his heads as it were WOUNDED TO DEATH…" (Rev. 13:3).

Yes, when we fall on Christ we are broken, we are wounded (by the "sword" of God—Rev. 13:14 vs. Heb. 4:12). This is our human attempt at salvation. But then we fall, and our "deadly wound [which we received by the Word of God] was healed" (Rev. 13:3), we went back into the world, back into Babylon, thus leaving our first love. When the wound of the Sword of God’s Word that had slain us, is healed, we fall from the love of God, and we again turn our love to the world from which we came.

But here’s the good news concerning this stone. If we are among the chosen that overcome, then the Stone falls ON US, and our spiritual house built upon the sand comes crashing down. And when Jesus falls on us, He GRINDS US [along with all of our idols of the heart] TO POWDER!
v
THANK GOD, that I (L. Ray Smith) had fallen away, left my first love, looked back, forsook the Lord, and watched my house upon the sand come crashing down! Only then was I able to stand upon the sand of the sea, and see the beast within, the man of sin, the son of perdition, and Satan the devil who DECEIVED ME!

But NOW, "I am crucified WITH Christ: nevertheless I live: yet not I, but Christ lives IN ME: and the life which I now life in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God, who loved ME [and YOU], and gave Himself for ME [and YOU]" (Gal. 2:20).

In conclusion:

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard BEHIND me a great voice, as of a trumpet… And I turned to see the voice that spoke with ME. And being TURNED, I saw seven gold candlesticks; [the complete church of God in all generations, with MY sins outlined in each and every one of them] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and His eyes were as a flame of fire; [PURGING all who look upon Him] And His feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned [refined] in a furnace; and His voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in His right hand seven stars: and out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was as the SUN SHINING IN HIS STRENGTH [no longer a physical body with HOLES in it].

And when I saw Him [in my SPIRIT] I fell at His feet as DEAD. And He laid His right hand upon ME [as He will upon YOU], saying unto ME [and unto YOU],

FEAR NOT" (Rev. 1:10-17).

Truly:  "We have seen the enemy and he is US."
------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

As God is my Witness, I can only look back at to what happened to me - and I know Ray and a lot on this Forum came out of the WGOC.

Since I can remember I have always been aware of Almighty God.

I lived as I was taught until I got absolutely fed up with the behaviour of some and most members of my family.

I went on holiday, and when I came back I got sick, and the more I tried to go back to work, the more sick I got. During these five days, something happened to me.

I then gave up all things worldly and started reading The Scriptures, and I knew that all the Christian churches were full of hypocrisy and false teachers and members - so it never entered my heart to go to any church.

One of my brothers suggested that I should go to a local AOG Pentecostal church. I did not want to go, but he said what have you got to lose, there are others there like you.

So I went, and I lasted a year, and obeyed their teachings, was baptised in water, spoke in tongues, cast out demons, led the youth groups, taped the teachings, went to home groups, etc - and I discovered that there was no transparency and no trust amongst the elders and the members - it was as if they just wanted to belong somewhere to be comfortable. 

When I left one of the elders wanted me to go with him and help him with his new ministry outside of that church. I was going to go with him, but on three separate occasions I had a sense of gloom and heaviness in my heart - which I took to mean that Our Heavenly Father did not want me to partake of this elder's new ministry.

So I was in the wilderness for many years, and I listened to Derek Prince, which at the time I accepted was an anointed teacher from On High.

I kept studying The Scriptures throughout and The Lord was always at the centre of my being, desires, etc.

Then, I was lead to Bible Truths, and I listened to all of Ray's videos and audios, and read all his papers, and most of his emails, and the Posts on the Forum.

I discovered that everything I was taught in the AOG PC was false; 'speaking in tongues' was a demonic teaching, so I stopped this, and persuaded the others who became believers to do the same (including two of my sisters and my wife), 'the beast' was me sitting on His Throne, 'all will be saved, each in His Time of His Choosing', 'His Elect are being judged now', etc.

So I do not know at what part of my life 'I fell away' from 'my first love' - as it has never entered my heart and mind to leave Him at any time - as when He reached out to me - I gave up everything for Him - to the amazement of all my family and those close to me.

Maybe, you can see from the above summary, when I fell away from my first love - as I cannot quite see it - the only possible time is when I accepted the false teachings of the AOG PC and Derek Prince's false teachings.

Kind Regards.

George
 

[Dave in Tenn]

There is one name given by which men must be saved.  It is not Buddha, Muhammad or Shiva.  Jesus is Lord.  Nobody comes to the Father except by Him.  It's neither unfair nor outside the ways and means of God to choose from among THE CHURCH, HIS CHURCH. 
     

Dave just to clarify... Are you saying that the Father only chooses His elect from among the mainstream, false religion, Christian church? Meaning that the Father does not choose people to 'come out of' other false religions and into a true knowledge of the One True God?

Not saying I disagree, but just wanting clarification.

Simply...unless a man's faith is in vain (literally, fake), then yes those chosen of God are chosen out of/from among believers in Christ.  The MANY say unto Him, "Lord, Lord..."  The MANY come in His name, saying He is the Christ and deceive many.  These are "christians", whether main-stream, self-styled or home-brewed.  Who else could He be talking about here?  Their faith is "real" enough, and sometimes their works are "wonderful".  They make up THE CHURCH, but they are not HIS CHURCH.  HIS CHURCH comes out of/from among THE CHURCH.

Read what Kat quoted above.  Ray explains it better than I can.

Of course God chooses men to come out of other false religions and into a True Knowledge of the One True God.  He is calling all men everywhere to repent.  But He is not electing any who don't believe on Him.  Or rather, He has not chosen any who are not dragged to Him. 

That doesn't mean that people with other "faiths" and even those with none at all won't be raised and have their works judged, both good and bad.  A man can "come out of or leave" any "babylon" he (thinks he) sees, but unless he is chosen, he cannot choose himself.  He can't even choose God.  Love isn't that we love Him...love is that He loved us.  Having (what seems like) a personal knowledge of Jesus Christ doesn't mean that He knows us.  Judgement begins at the House of God.  That's from where He reveals His chosen.

Ray reminded us not to be too hard on the Church.  Paul said not to judge things before their time.  Today's religious murderer can be tomorrow's manifest son of God.  It's all up to Him, and it was determined from the foundation of the world.  We can only see with any certainty behind us, and even then not completely.  And we'll go through fire.

     

[Kat]

So I do not know at what part of my life 'I fell away' from 'my first love' - as it has never entered my heart and mind to leave Him at any time - as when He reached out to me - I gave up everything for Him - to the amazement of all my family and those close to me.

Maybe, you can see from the above summary, when I fell away from my first love - as I cannot quite see it - the only possible time is when I accepted the false teachings of the AOG PC and Derek Prince's false teachings.

Kind Regards.

George

Hi George, I can't know when you may have fallen away from your first love, even with your summary I am not able to know when things that are very specific to each of us happened with you. But I will give you my understanding of things the best that I can.

For one thing we are not born with a knowledge of God, even if we are raised within a family of church goers, there is a point in time when we can have a comprehension of God, but I too cannot remember a time when I did not know there was a God. The thing is we have to develop the understanding that we need to be saved from sin and death and learn that Christ is the only way that is possible. Now I do not know when this real 'first love' might have dawned in your mind.

I was raised as a Southern Baptist and it was a rather big deal that people make a public announcement of their fate in God as their Savior... every Sunday church service ended with an 'alter call' just for this purpose. Children coming forward was not only allowed but encouraged (after a certain age of course, they were loosely questioned to see if they actually knew what they were doing), because they believe children go to hell too. I think I was about 6 or 7 when I was baptized. I have seen many of these 'invitation to accept Christ' where people come forward to dedicate their lives to Him and some times it was a pretty emotional event for them and I don't think it was just for show either. I'm not for sure, but I believe that most religions have some sort of induction ceremony after a person decides to commit to that institution's particular set of beliefs, join as a member.

When we join with a church or any religious belief system, even our own idea of what truth is I suppose, we begin to build our 'false' spiritual house on the sand. Every "born again" Christian truly believe they are saved, when I was in church I too thought I had salvation, I didn't know any better, as all Christians are deceived. But this is the way it must be, that we learn our lesson of good and evil and being among the called we do learn the basics of who Christ is and why He came into the world. So what I'm saying is we do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling from birth and it certainly is not given when we join a harlot church, nor does it come with any of our own attempts to gain salvation.

I was a non-commented Southern Baptist early in my life, even though I was baptized as a child, but as a young adult I heard Herbert Armstrong and started attending WCG, was re-baptized and was very commented to that group for 15 year. When that organization began to disintegrate I left and went back to the Southern Baptist for 10 more years, ugh. That leads me to where I found BT some 10 years ago. What I see in all that we first have to get a big dose of an experience of good and evil, we have to know what this world really is by our own experience in it. We have to be called and learn who Christ is to start with, that certainly was not our begettal of the Holy Spirit, no that was deception. The called have no real spiritual understanding, that is building your 'false' spiritual house on sand. Spiritual knowledge of the truth only comes after all of that trying to save ourselves (that's what it really is), that all must come down. It's a rather jolting thing at first, to realize how wrong we have been, but it's a process that last the rest of our lives unlearning all the falsehood, but that's when the Holy Spirit comes indwelling. It was not until I started reading Ray's explanations of Scripture that my 'false' spiritual house built on sand fail and great was it's fall.

I have a real hope now, as I can see a distinct and profound difference from my wanderings in the church world and what I have now. I can certainly look back and see many changes in my way of thinking and living. What I gained from the Scripture as Ray taught it is much different than I understood in the church. Now I can see what is taught from the Scripture itself, I mean you have to come to understand the Scripture and not just what somebody tells you it means, that's a profound difference. Certainly it takes time, but having a teacher like Ray was a huge benefit.

So after saying all this maybe something will help you, but this is just my experience as I understand things.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

Largeli, this should help too.

From Ray:

I have said many times in this series that there are "the called" and there are the "called AND chosen." We see it in every example: Jesus called Peter

"And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter… and He said unto them, Follow Me…" (Matt. 4:18-19),

and so Peter followed Jesus

"And they straightway left their nets, and FOLLOWED Him." (Ver. 20)

And so Peter followed Jesus for three and one-half years. But Peter was not converted:

"And the Lord said, Simon [Peter], Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not: and WHEN YOU ARE CONVERTED, strengthen your brethren" (Luke 22:31-32).

Called and Called and Chosen.  The "chosen" are not a breed apart, though I'll admit to sometimes using language that might imply that.  It isn't that there are these "called folks" over here and then there are these "chosen folks" over there.  "Many are called, few are chosen" doesn't imply otherwise.  Many are called, yes...and it is from among them that few are chosen.

The rest of that little snippet is invaluable too.

 

[Brenda]

Hi George, I too grew up in Babylon for many years, followed the traditions of men.  When I came upon Bible-Truths, I cried for days (months).  For the first time in my life, I realized, if you are dragged by GOD, he will set you free.  I have gained so much from Ray's teaching and have studied GOD's Word daily (and continue to do so, praise GOD) and I can only tell you that GOD's Will, will be done!  This Forum has saved my life and I thank GOD daily.

[cheekie3]

Brenda -

Thank you so much for sharing this:

Hi George, I too grew up in Babylon for many years, followed the traditions of men.  When I came upon Bible-Truths, I cried for days (months).  For the first time in my life, I realized, if you are dragged by GOD, he will set you free.  I have gained so much from Ray's teaching and have studied GOD's Word daily (and continue to do so, praise GOD) and I can only tell you that GOD's Will, will be done!  This Forum has saved my life and I thank GOD daily.

I too, got the answers I was craving for over many years when I read Ray's Papers and emails, and I shed tears too.

The Truth indeed does set us all free.

Kind Regards.

George

[cheekie3]

Dave in Tenn -

Thank you for reminding us of the important difference between the "the called" and the "called AND chosen":

Largeli, this should help too.

From Ray:

I have said many times in this series that there are "the called" and there are the "called AND chosen." We see it in every example: Jesus called Peter

"And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter… and He said unto them, Follow Me…" (Matt. 4:18-19),

and so Peter followed Jesus

"And they straightway left their nets, and FOLLOWED Him." (Ver. 20)

And so Peter followed Jesus for three and one-half years. But Peter was not converted:

"And the Lord said, Simon [Peter], Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not: and WHEN YOU ARE CONVERTED, strengthen your brethren" (Luke 22:31-32).

Called and Called and Chosen.  The "chosen" are not a breed apart, though I'll admit to sometimes using language that might imply that.  It isn't that there are these "called folks" over here and then there are these "chosen folks" over there.  "Many are called, few are chosen" doesn't imply otherwise.  Many are called, yes...and it is from among them that few are chosen.

The rest of that little snippet is invaluable too.

 

This is indeed a fundamental Truth that most professing Christians and followers of Jesus Christ are unaware of this distinction - or how - one starts as one of "the called" and then may become one of the "called AND chosen".

Kind Regards.

George

 

[cheekie3]

Kat - Thank you for your below Post:

So I do not know at what part of my life 'I fell away' from 'my first love' - as it has never entered my heart and mind to leave Him at any time - as when He reached out to me - I gave up everything for Him - to the amazement of all my family and those close to me.

Maybe, you can see from the above summary, when I fell away from my first love - as I cannot quite see it - the only possible time is when I accepted the false teachings of the AOG PC and Derek Prince's false teachings.

Kind Regards.

George

Hi George, I can't know when you may have fallen away from your first love, even with your summary I am not able to know when things that are very specific to each of us happened with you. But I will give you my understanding of things the best that I can.

For one thing we are not born with a knowledge of God, even if we are raised within a family of church goers, there is a point in time when we can have a comprehension of God, but I too cannot remember a time when I did not know there was a God. The thing is we have to develop the understanding that we need to be saved from sin and death and learn that Christ is the only way that is possible. Now I do not know when this real 'first love' might have dawned in your mind.

I was raised as a Southern Baptist and it was a rather big deal that people make a public announcement of their fate in God as their Savior... every Sunday church service ended with an 'alter call' just for this purpose. Children coming forward was not only allowed but encouraged (after a certain age of course, they were loosely questioned to see if they actually knew what they were doing), because they believe children go to hell too. I think I was about 6 or 7 when I was baptized. I have seen many of these 'invitation to accept Christ' where people come forward to dedicate their lives to Him and some times it was a pretty emotional event for them and I don't think it was just for show either. I'm not for sure, but I believe that most religions have some sort of induction ceremony after a person decides to commit to that institution's particular set of beliefs, join as a member.

When we join with a church or any religious belief system, even our own idea of what truth is I suppose, we begin to build our 'false' spiritual house on the sand. Every "born again" Christian truly believe they are saved, when I was in church I too thought I had salvation, I didn't know any better, as all Christians are deceived. But this is the way it must be, that we learn our lesson of good and evil and being among the called we do learn the basics of who Christ is and why He came into the world. So what I'm saying is we do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling from birth and it certainly is not given when we join a harlot church, nor does it come with any of our own attempts to gain salvation.

I was a non-commented Southern Baptist early in my life, even though I was baptized as a child, but as a young adult I heard Herbert Armstrong and started attending WCG, was re-baptized and was very commented to that group for 15 year. When that organization began to disintegrate I left and went back to the Southern Baptist for 10 more years, ugh. That leads me to where I found BT some 10 years ago. What I see in all that we first have to get a big dose of an experience of good and evil, we have to know what this world really is by our own experience in it. We have to be called and learn who Christ is to start with, that certainly was not our begettal of the Holy Spirit, no that was deception. The called have no real spiritual understanding, that is building your 'false' spiritual house on sand. Spiritual knowledge of the truth only comes after all of that trying to save ourselves (that's what it really is), that all must come down. It's a rather jolting thing at first, to realize how wrong we have been, but it's a process that last the rest of our lives unlearning all the falsehood, but that's when the Holy Spirit comes indwelling. It was not until I started reading Ray's explanations of Scripture that my 'false' spiritual house built on sand fail and great was it's fall.

I have a real hope now, as I can see a distinct and profound difference from my wanderings in the church world and what I have now. I can certainly look back and see many changes in my way of thinking and living. What I gained from the Scripture as Ray taught it is much different than I understood in the church. Now I can see what is taught from the Scripture itself, I mean you have to come to understand the Scripture and not just what somebody tells you it means, that's a profound difference. Certainly it takes time, but having a teacher like Ray was a huge benefit.

So after saying all this maybe something will help you, but this is just my experience as I understand things.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

I was at the end of a ten point response to you - when suddenly when I touched the mouse on our computer, my draft disappeared.

As I do not believe in coincidences or randomness - I have pondered on this - and as yet - I have not a clue as to why this happened.

Perhaps, my draft was not quite right - so I will reflect on this - and await His Directive on this matter.

Kind Regards.

George

[lareli]

Dave your quote..

Simply...unless a man's faith is in vain (literally, fake), then yes those chosen of God are chosen out of/from among believers in Christ.  The MANY say unto Him, "Lord, Lord..."  The MANY come in His name, saying He is the Christ and deceive many.  These are "christians", whether main-stream, self-styled or home-brewed.  Who else could He be talking about here?  Their faith is "real" enough, and sometimes their works are "wonderful".  They make up THE CHURCH, but they are not HIS CHURCH.  HIS CHURCH comes out of/from among THE CHURCH.

In the verses you've referenced above, that the many say unto Him "Lord, Lord..", is it of any consequence that the scripture you're referencing doesn't actually say "the many" but Christ says "many will come to me and say 'Lord, Lord..' " He says 'many will say' not 'the many will say...'

I don't know if that's of any consequence or not.

Also where you said the many make up The Church but not His Church. So The Church (not His Church) is the synagogue of satan is that right? Ok wouldn't a mosque or any other pagan temple also be a church of satans? Maybe not huh... maybe 'synagogue' of satan implies a specific religion... Does synagogue of satan imply that the Jewish temples as well as Christian churches are where the many and called are located? Are synagogues and churches what make up the church (not His Church) while mosques and other false religions temples/churches are not the synagogue of satan and not the church, the many?