Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi Collin,

I have a second witness to Collosions which states the exact same thing and removes all ambiguity about just what these ordinances are.

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Now 'law of commandments' does not sound like 'infraction tickets' to me. It does not sound like we are talking about our sins here. No, not at all. The two witnesses speak the truth.

Here is what ray said on the matter of ordinances.

---------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5813.msg47165.html#msg47165

COMMENT:  Oh really?  "The LAW was nailed to the cross," was it?  And do you have chapter and verse on that bit of unscriptural nonsense  Col 2:14 "Blotting out THE HANDWRITING OF ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross."  God never nailed His "LAW" to the cross.  The Covenant Law which IS THE TEN COMMANDMENTS was not a "handwriting of ordinances," but was rather chiseled IN STONE, and was placed IN the ark of the Covenant, not on the OUTSIDE of the ark as were the ordinances. You have not a clue as to what you are talking about.
----------------------

Now I do not believe a record of past sins what kept beside the arc. No. It was the rest of the laws given to moses not chiseled in stone like the ten commandments (2 Cor 3:7).

Deuteronomy 31:24-26
 When Moses had finished writing the words of this law in a book to the very end, Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, “Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.

There they are. WRITTEN in a BOOK by Moses!  So we have a book of laws placed beside the arc which contains hand written ordinances. These ordinances were none other than all those other laws ("law of commandments" -- Eph 2:15) such as found in leveticus that were not ethe ten commandents because those were kept INSIDE the arc and were engrave onto two tablets of STONE.

1 Kings 8:9 There was nothing in the ark except the two tablets of stone that Moses put there at Horeb, where the Lord made a covenant with the people of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

Hebrews 9:4 containing the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. Inside the ark were the gold jar of manna, Aaron's staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.

You are right that Jesus did not come to destroy the prophets nor the law but He did come to fulfill and so He has.

God bless,
Alex

[John from Kentucky]

I am always amused by wannabe teachers who go into great detail quoting Scriptures in the original languages and discussing fine points of Hebrew and Greek grammar for the benefit of us ignorant ones.  I observe in the Scriptures that Jesus, Paul, John, and other teachers never used that teaching method.

God's Elect are taught by Jesus through the Holy Spirit.  Physical religious teachers have no understanding.

Jesus said His Words are Spirit and they are Life.

The Old Covenant and teachings are done away.  Clean and unclean meats refer to the difference between the Elect and those not chosen at this time.  Jesus fulfilled all things in Himself.

Jesus has set us free from the false teachings of the great false church and its teacher Satan.

Do not allow false teachers to imprison you if Jesus has set you free.

[virginiabm]

Hi Family, I would like to throw my two cents in here. My understanding of clean and unclean meats is as John from Kentucky says and also we are not to take on the character of these unclean aaimals, like the swine swallows in the mirer,  we are not to wallow in our sins or be greedy. We are not to be like a dog that goes back to it's vomit. I have looked up the meanings of the animals that are clean and unclean, and I have come to understand by the Grace of God that it is the character of these ainamls that we are to avoid, we are to have the mind of Christ and He was represented by a Lamb. I believe that is what Jesus meant when He said it is not what goes into the body, but what comes out of the mouth that defiles a man.
Clean meats represent good behaviour and a Christlike attitude towards God and man.
   I hope I don't sound teachy, but this is how I understand clean and unclean meats as spiritual and not physcial. The physcial profits nothing.

     Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
     Virginia Miller

[octoberose]

John and Virginia- I never looked at it that way. Thanks for adding to the discussion.

[Dave in Tenn]

I am always amused by wannabe teachers who go into great detail quoting Scriptures in the original languages and discussing fine points of Hebrew and Greek grammar for the benefit of us ignorant ones.  I observe in the Scriptures that Jesus, Paul, John, and other teachers never used that teaching method.

Don't get caught up in overstatement, John.  Ray Smith went into great detail pointing out truths only apparent in the original languages.  Still, I'm fully convinced that Spiritual eyes and ears have been opened when all that was available was the KJV.

[Colin]

Hi Alex

Quote: lilitalienboi16    Re: Clean Meat and Unclean Meat  « Reply #20 on: 4th September 2016 at 02:04:47 AM »   Hi Colin, I have a second witness to Colossians which states the exact same thing and removes all ambiguity about just what these ordinances are.

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;   
Now 'law of commandments' does not sound like 'infraction tickets' to me. It does not sound like we are talking about our sins here.   No, not at all.      [end of quote]

You have been much too superficial in your reading of the passage in Ephesians 2, Alex.     Picking out one solitary verse often causes one to lose the theme or the topic under consideration.    Let’s ask, what specifically was Paul addressing here?  Paul begins his discussion in verse 11.

Eph 2:11  Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 

Paul is making a contrast, isn’t he?   Between how the Gentiles USED to be and what they had become then – no longer separated, but unified.   

Eph 2:14  For he is our peace, who hath made both [Jews and Gentiles] one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;    [the words between us are in italics and have been added by translators].

What exactly was the “middle wall” of partition”?     The Greek is mesotoichon …….the type is seen in the stone palisade, about three cubits high, which separated the Court of the Gentiles from that of the Jews, to pass which was death to any Gentile.     

And how had that come about?  Paul goes on to explain:
Eph 2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments [Greek entole] contained in ordinances [Greek dogma] ; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
WHAT was abolished or done away?     The ENMITY.  And Paul equates that as being the “law of commandments contained in ordinances”.   

ἐντολή   entolē     From G1781; injunction, that is, an authoritative prescription: - commandment, precept.
Δόγμα  dogma    From the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance.

And what was the purpose of abolishing this enmity, in other words, abolishing the authoritative decrees?   

Eph 2:16  And that he might reconcile both [Jews and Gentiles] unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity [Greek echthra] thereby:

ἔχθρα   echthra     Feminine of G2190; hostility; by implication a reason for opposition: - enmity, hatred.

It was to RECONCILE.   As the last part of the verse says, to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.

That’s what Ephesians 2 is all about.   It does NOT support your ideas, Alex and John.   

 If my explaining the Greek is a bother to you John, then what did you think when Ray did the very same thing?  I am trying to follow his example…..not lean to my own understanding (Prov. 3:5-7). 

Eph 2:17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Whatever made you think that you had a “back-up” in quoting Ephesians 2?

You are also trying to “compare apples with oranges”, when you referred us 

:  Here is what Ray said on the matter of ordinances.      ---------   http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5813.msg47165.html#msg47165      [end of quote]


I read the entire interchange between Ray and Jason and it centred on Jason’s ideas about “legality” and homosexuality - does not have any relevance to our discussion.

Alex, you are quite correct when you point out the difference between the Ten Commandments being INSIDE the Ark of the Covenant and the “book of the Law” being by the side of the ark.

What is your point? I cannot see what that has to do with whether such items in the “book of the law”, such as the injunction against eating unclean meats, aspects of hygiene and cleanliness, contagious diseases and sex perversion – all of which I have mentioned before – were ever considered by Jesus as fit to be discarded…..so that we can supposedly be “freed” from such commands.

 Such a line of thinking is one which I expect to be coming from Satan, as it would hasten the demise of any nation.   

 In fact, by being on the OUTSIDE, the “book of the law” was more readily available for consultation.   

Furthermore, we can read of the reaction when that book was discovered and taken to the king of the day, Josiah.     See 2 Kings 22:8-13         Colin

[Dave in Tenn]

Colin, you've also quit reading too soon, but I can't drag up the entirety of Scripture in a forum post even if I were wise enough to locate all the pertinent Scripture attached to these.

Eph 2:17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Is becoming like "them that were nigh" the true meaning of "reconciliation" here?    Why would He come to preach peace to "them that were nigh" if that were the case?  The "circumcision in the flesh made by hands" is no profit.  Neither is "un-circumcision in the flesh".  "We" gentiles don't become "saints" by taking on the physical practices of the Jews any more than they become saints by taking on the physical practices of the Gentiles.  We all become one because we both have access BY ONE SPIRIT unto the Father.  The circumcision made without hands.  Knowing that the Law is Spiritual.  Saved by grace, through faith...and that, not of ourselvfes...not of works, lest any man should boast.  Etc. Etc. Etc.  This is how Gentiles in the flesh become Jews in the Spirit.  Guess what?  This is also how JEWS in the flesh become Jews in the Spirit.

Peter put it like this:

Act 10:47  Can anyone forbid the water that these not be baptized, who the Holy Spirit received, even as we also?

And again and again several times in the same and different words throughout the remainder of Acts.

Now I don't doubt that there is wisdom in these "handwriting of ordinances" in the physical (and huge lessons to be learned in the Spiritual--but who's really interested in that?)  But I ask if it is better to be ceremonially clean than to be physically clean?  And is it better to be physically clean than Spiritually clean? 

Some of the "handwriting of ordinances" CANNOT any longer be physically kept.  There is no word in either of the biblical languages which means "forever".  Some are covered in the keeping of the 10 Commandments Spiritually (in other words, REALLY, as we know, or ought to know, that the Law is Spiritual).  Some seem to have been re-iterated in the Council, but for how long I don't know.  Some may even be covered in the wholly encapsulated Law of "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, and mind and thy neighbor as thyself"...especially if we truly do love the Lord with all our MINDS.  I'll even go out on a limb further and say there are some we ought NOT to keep. 

So what can possibly be the harm in physically keeping these wise ordinances?  To the body?  Mostly none.  Indeed, mostly benefit, I reckon.  To the Spirit?  If you haven't figured this out, I can't much help you. 

[lilitalienboi16]

Well Colin, Unfortunately for you, an entire reading of Ephesians changes not the fact that these ordinances were more than 'infraction tickets' or a list of past sins which you tried to claim originally.

Colossians 2:10-15
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

I don't think you understand how to read this verse properly. So let me try a couple others and you will see it changes not the fact that these ordinances contained commandments which we are told were nailed to the cross.

(ISV)  He rendered the Law inoperative, along with its commandments and regulations, thus creating in himself one new humanity from the two, thereby making peace,
(ESV)  by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
GNB)  He abolished the Jewish Law with its commandments and rules, in order to create out of the two races one new people in union with himself, in this way making peace.
(Rotherham)  The enmity, in his flesh—the law of commandments in decrees—bringing to nought,—that, the two, he might create in himself, into one man of new mould, making peace.
(YLT)  the enmity in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace,
(CEV)  to destroy the Law of Moses with all its rules and commands. He even brought Jews and Gentiles together as though we were only one person, when he united us in peace.
(HCSB) He made of no effect the law consisting of commands and expressed in regulations, so that He might create in Himself one new man from the two, resulting in peace.

Tell me again how all of this does not support that the ordinances, the same greek word as you showed in both passages, was nailed to the cross as shown in Collisions? Why do you think hiding this verse by burying it amongst a larger discussion occurring in the chapter will somehow make your point? Trying to gloss over it changes not the fact of what is stated in the verse.

So now colin you've brought up zero scriptures which suggest we should keep the old Leviticus laws but instead argued with man's wisdom about why we should. However, there are many witnesses against your argument from all throughout the scriptures. Let's take a look at some of them (again).

Hebrews 8:5-12
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The old covenant and all those levitcal laws, those hand written ordinances that were nailed to the cross, all that physical fleshy ritual stuff, is on the verge of vanishing away! Its DECAYING OLD!

Mark 7:15-16
15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Its not what comes from without and enters a man, FOOD, that defiles him!

Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Romans 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Romans 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

The Kingdom of God has nothing to do with eating and drinking this or that! There is NO unclean meat! Nothing!

You know you're so fond of getting the whole context colin that let me share with you the whole context of Collisions which I failed to due but which may prevented this.

Collisions 2:9-23
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Col 2:23  Such things sound impressive if said in a deep enough voice. They even give the illusion of being pious and humble and ascetic. But they're just another way of showing off, making yourselves look important.

Think the MSG hit that nail on the head.

1 Cor 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

This last one is a warning well to be heeded for all those who think that there is righteousness or any obligiations to be had upon new testament believers in keeping the old laws.

Galatians 5:1-10
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Christ is the end of the law! That includes those levitical laws. His is the body casting the shadow. The reality.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Jesus came to fulfill and He did. It is why He said: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." (John 19:30)

Indeed, it is finished, He is the author and perfecter. We are complete in Him.

Sorry Colin but no amount of worldly wisdom is going to convince me that it is in our best interests to keep the old levitical laws. I will follow God's spirit to where He leads me.

There is safety in the multitude of counselors and I have provided you with a great many of them.

God be with you,
Alex

[Kat]

We have to consider why the Israelite were given the rules about clean and unclean meat in the first place... wasn't it to teach a lesson about sin through a physical example? Being unclean in all the ordinates given to Israel came in many forms, but it was all ritualistic and the laws concerning clean and unclean meats were no exception. These were unrelated to health, the ordinances given in Leviticus were concerned with ritual uncleanness and ritual purity. An example of this is in Leviticus 11 where even 'contact' with an unclean animal makes a person or an article unclean, and a ritual was needed for cleansing.

Mark 7:18  So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,
v. 19  because it doth not enter into his heart, but into the belly, and into the drain it doth go out, purifying all the meats.'

Here when Jesus declared all meats clean, He was simply changing the definition of unclean under the new covenant. No longer did unclean refer to the flesh of certain animals, whether one ate with unwashed hands or a woman was having a menstrual flow, etc. Unclean now took on its true meaning... that these physical types were only a shadow to picture sin.

In Acts 10 of course the primary meaning of Peter's vision was that Gentiles were no longer to be considered unclean/unworthy, that God had opened salvation to them also... but that all meats were clean was certainly the secondary implication, how could it be used as the object of the vision otherwise? Christ taught Peter that Gentiles were acceptable by showing him that unclean animals are acceptable. Peter even used the same words "common" (koinos) and "unclean" (akathartos) to describe both the animals and Gentiles.

Acts 10:14  But Peter said, "Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common(G2839) or unclean(G169).

Acts 10:28  Then he said to them, "You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common(G2839) or unclean(G169).

It just seems a clear implication that by the comparison that God has made both Gentiles as well as the unclean animals clean.

Col 2:16  So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
v. 17  which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. (Young's)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Joel]

Re: Clean Meat and unclean meat

1st Timothy 4:1-5
1-Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the FAITH, giving heed to seducing spirits, and the doctrines of devils;
2- Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3-Forbiding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4-For EVERY creature of God is GOOD, and nothing to be refused, IF it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
5-For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Joel

[cheekie3]

All -

The Posts have been very enlightening.

Thank you for all of your Posts.

We seem to have a difference of view, in that some, believe The Scriptures confirm that there is no food that is unclean; and others, believe that there are some foods that are still unclean to eat.

I have waited patiently to observe how these Posts would reveal the Truths of Scriptures.

So I am asking - as we are still flesh and blood today, what, if anything, do we need to not eat - and I know that we not to eat anything that has been strangled, and I believe we must ensure that we do not eat the blood of the animals (so I assume it must not be cooked raw, or semi-raw, but actually cooked):

Acts 15:29 (KJV):
That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

1 Timothy 4:3 (KJV):
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Hebrews 9:10 (KJV):
Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Hebrews 13:9 (KJV):
Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

Then there are these Scriptures:

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Romans 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Romans 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

It appears that the ordinances that no longer apply under The New Covenant include meats - which appear to mean that there are no longer clean and unclean meats.

I wonder why, The New Testament Scriptures do not clearly state that 'there is now no unclean meats for mankind not to eat'.

I have never been one to diet - but lately I have become very mindful about the quality and benefits of the food available to us from our supermarkets, markets and other sources.

I have for many years accepted that as long as we accept the food is good for us with thanksgiving, it is sanctified by Our Heavenly Father; with the exception if it offends a brother or sister at the same table, if it was offered to idols, if it was strangled, and if there was still blood in the meat.

Lately, there is a lot about the food we eat from cans, GMO, etc - and hence I started a new research into the whole thing on what we can eat.

I mean, there are a lot of professing believers who have health issues, including being over weight, having bad circulation, etc - and there are a lot of non meat foods (fruit, berries, leaves, nuts, herbs, etc), that are stated as being very good for the mind and body.

I stopped eating meat a few months ago, and I do not miss it at all. I am not saying I am better in mind and body, but I am certainly not worse.

Once again, thank you all for your Posts - and there have been a number of very good points raised backed up by The Holy Scriptures.

Kind Regards.

George

[John from Kentucky]

...but he who is weak eats only vegetables.  Romans 14:2

George, you are free to not eat meat.  You are free to eat meat.  The New Covenant does not have a bunch of food rules.

The gist of Romans 14 is we are not to judge one another over food matters, and by implication over other minor things.

We are called to peace and freedom in Jesus.  The Spirit of God guides us in all things.

[Kat]

So I am asking - as we are still flesh and blood today, what, if anything, do we need to not eat - and I know that we not to eat anything that has been strangled, and I believe we must ensure that we do not eat the blood of the animals (so I assume it must not be cooked raw, or semi-raw, but actually cooked):

Hi George, even that last bit in this question, "we not to eat anything that has been strangled, and I believe we must ensure that we do not eat the blood of the animals (so I assume it must not be cooked raw, or semi-raw, but actually cooked)" I do not believe is a requirement now... that was to easy the new Gentile converts into socializing with the Jews.

What I believe is that each person must determine for themselves what is the right way to eat and that will differ quite a bit, but nothing we eat is wrong or a sin, now it certainly can become an idol of the heart. Some make a great deal of effort to eat right, where as others don't give what they eat a second thought.

Now is there health considerations? Maybe so, but can any one of us add one hour to our lives by how we eat? Isn't this just another form of trying to control our destiny?

Luke 12:25  And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?

What I trying to say is how well we eat does not determine that we will live longer or even be healthier, not really... there are thousands of factors that come into play in the circumstances of our health and we do not control any of it. So why burden ourselves with eating rules? And of more concern is why would we want to burden others with 'our' ideas of proper eating?

In the past I have looked into many proper eating/living approaches... in my searches I found more than I could possibly read on a great number of different topics of healthy living. I soon began finding contradictory information and differences in what degrees and how one should even apply certain methods... the more I read the more bogged down in all the info and confused I became. I began to realize that the nutritionist experts were all extremist in their own area of knowledge.

But I'm not necessarily saying throw out the baby with the bath water, so to speak. What I do now is just eat what seems sensible to me, I do the best I can in my particular life circumstances and eat certain things in moderation. But even this idea is not for everybody, to each his own... anyway it is not up to us what God has in store for us by the choices we make.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

Colin, I attempted in my last post to "answer" your questions about serious sins mentioned in these ordinances.  Let me try again being a bit more specific.

I've made no secret over the years here that essentially what I am running in my life is an "experiment".  It's not enough for me to have "doctrine" down pat.  I want to know from experience what all these truths in the Scripture are about.  I'm a bit of a special case (there's an understatement for ya).  I didn't come "here" thinking I just needed a little trim around the edges.  I am/have been full to overflowing with all manner of sin.  You don't want to be me.  But if it's true that where sin abounded, grace did much more abound, I'm a pretty good case-study.  He's got a LOT to work with.  HUGE sample-size. 

On that score, let me tell you two things. 

1.  The greatest and most hurtful "lusts" I have both battled and wallowed in are not all specifically "forbidden" by any law or ordinance--Old Testament or new.  Yet even a babe in understanding can see the "spirit" behind the words of Christ concerning them.  The whole of the law IS encapsulated in the two great commandments.  Why would any believer who has any measure of the Spirit of God need a law that condemns sex with animals?  I think anybody who does cannot call themselves "converted".   

2.  I've found over time that the more I resist the many pulls of carnal religion and place my FAITH in the Savior, the looser the grip other lusts have over me.  This is NOT the way of the world or of worldly religion.  You know this.  I had my first brush with this when I was 18, but the heat came and I withered.  This is quite the opposite of the way of the world and religion, and as an "observer" of my own life, it surprised me at first.  Now I've grown more comfortable with it.  I can't explain it any other way than that...He is working in me to both will and do His good pleasure.  That He's got His work cut out for Him goes without saying, but what is impossible for a man is possible with God.

[indianabob]

Perhaps we could gain a little more understanding of the physical aspects of this clean meat question by inquiring of the very young among us.
This little girl is obviously emotional in her responses, but it seems quite natural to feel that way. And I sympathize...because I was once young myself. 
I-bob

https://www.yahoo.com/news/kind-hearted-girl-explains-why-000700805.html

[cheekie3]

Kat -

Thank you for pointing this out:

So I am asking - as we are still flesh and blood today, what, if anything, do we need to not eat - and I know that we not to eat anything that has been strangled, and I believe we must ensure that we do not eat the blood of the animals (so I assume it must not be cooked raw, or semi-raw, but actually cooked):

Hi George, even that last bit in this question, "we not to eat anything that has been strangled, and I believe we must ensure that we do not eat the blood of the animals (so I assume it must not be cooked raw, or semi-raw, but actually cooked)" I do not believe is a requirement now... that was to easy the new Gentile converts into socializing with the Jews.

What I believe is that each person must determine for themselves what is the right way to eat and that will differ quite a bit, but nothing we eat is wrong or a sin, now it certainly can become an idol of the heart. Some make a great deal of effort to eat right, where as others don't give what they eat a second thought.

Now is there health considerations? Maybe so, but can any one of us add one hour to our lives by how we eat? Isn't this just another form of trying to control our destiny?

Luke 12:25  And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?

What I trying to say is how well we eat does not determine that we will live longer or even be healthier, not really... there are thousands of factors that come into play in the circumstances of our health and we do not control any of it. So why burden ourselves with eating rules? And of more concern is why would we want to burden others with 'our' ideas of proper eating?

In the past I have looked into many proper eating/living approaches... in my searches I found more than I could possibly read on a great number of different topics of healthy living. I soon began finding contradictory information and differences in what degrees and how one should even apply certain methods... the more I read the more bogged down in all the info and confused I became. I began to realize that the nutritionist experts were all extremist in their own area of knowledge.

But I'm not necessarily saying throw out the baby with the bath water, so to speak. What I do now is just eat what seems sensible to me, I do the best I can in my particular life circumstances and eat certain things in moderation. But even this idea is not for everybody, to each his own... anyway it is not up to us what God has in store for us by the choices we make.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

These 'specialist' contradictions is the reason I asked the question in the first place - as I wanted to know what the Truth of this matter is from God's revealed Word.

We all know that He is in control of all things and is 'responsible' for all things - including what we should eat.

If our food is being poisoned and contaminated for evil purposes to keep us sickly and dumbed down - what are the 'called out called out ones' to do about it - for themselves and those they pray for - plus the others who are currently lost.

If by prayer, these poisons / chemicals cannot harm the 'called out called out ones' and those they pray for - what about the lost - does Our Heavenly Father Will that these are inflicted so, as part of their experiencing the 'knowledge of good and evil'.

Or, is the food fine, and we are being lied to to keep us in fear and timid.

I suppose, it is similar to raise the issue of our poor brothers and sisters who struggle in pain with lack of food and proper healthcare / medicine - probably one of the most raised questions by those who doubt there is a loving God, because of all the evil in the world.

Maybe, it is as simple as 'who am I to question why are things thus, and why has He worked out for these things to be thus at this time'.

After all, He has promised to 'feed' us, like He does the birds - and we should not worry about such things.

Maybe, this whole 'good food' issue, is one method He uses for mankind to focus on 'why we are here, and is this all here by accident, or by design - and if by design - should I / we seek the Truth of these things - and ask the giver of life why?'.

Cancer and Dementia are very big concerns today, and 'treatments' do not 'cure' these - yet the Old Testament promises health to our bodies and minds if we obey His Commandments - and there are natural remedies to cure our minds and bodies. I guess this is the heart of the matter.

Personally, I do not want to be concerned about what I eat and drink - as we can make this a religion.

But when you have believing family members who suffer from Dementia, it forces us, to seek His Face about such things.

I used to believe that our bodies crave what they need - yet some of us are addicted to drinks and foods that are harmful to us.

He has scripted what each of us shall do each and every second of our lives, including what we eat and drink - and there is nothing that we can do to change one iota of this.

I used to say, and still say, I am not concerned about protecting my back - as He is my Protector.

Perhaps, I should also say, I will eat and drink what is available to me and trust that He will ensure that my mind and body gets the right nourishment and minerals - and forget about the possible harm from eating pork, etc.

I mean, I know nuts are good for all of us, especially almonds, who some say are the king of nuts. Yet some cannot eat nuts as they cause them harm.

To side track a little - I have researched and studied why people 'smoke cigarettes' and 'drink fizzy drinks' - and these are harmful and not beneficial at all. I have never understood why men and women smoke, as to me the harm they do is obvious, and that is why I have never smoked - and to the peer pressure others tried to place on me to try - like calling me 'chicken' - I rebutted with questions like 'why? what good will it do you or me?' and they got fed up with trying to persuade me to 'smoke'. My father smoked for 61 years, and in the end he told me that he wished he never started - and towards the end of his life, he had no problem giving them up, and chewed gum instead, without going to a clinic or 'cold turkey' - he just decided one day, no more. I did 'drink fizzy drinks' myself, as it did not occur to me that they would sell drinks that are harmful to us. Once I studied what the ingredients are in 'fizzy drinks' I stopped drinking these. Yet, I have family members who 'like the taste' and 'it makes them feel better' - and I watch them 'drink fizzy' and tell them to drink water instead - but still (in spite of my many, many, many prayers over so many, many years), they still drink this stuff.

The bottom line must be that we all depend on Our Heavenly Father to Protect and Guide us in what we should eat and drink (as He has written His Laws in our hearts and in our minds), and He cares for us.

Thank you all for all of your very helpful Posts.

Kind Regards.

George


 
 

[cheekie3]

indianabob -

Thank you for sharing this:

Perhaps we could gain a little more understanding of the physical aspects of this clean meat question by inquiring of the very young among us.
This little girl is obviously emotional in her responses, but it seems quite natural to feel that way. And I sympathize...because I was once young myself. 
I-bob

https://www.yahoo.com/news/kind-hearted-girl-explains-why-000700805.html

One of my sisters, when one of our uncles laughed and killed a chicken in front of her when she was quite young, made her choose not to eat any animal or fish and she became a vegan from that time forward. She is a believer and has a family who do eat meat, and she does cook meat, as she accepts that it is up to each of us to decide what we should eat and not eat.

Kind Regards.

George

[cheekie3]

Joel -

Thank you for Posting this:

Re: Clean Meat and unclean meat

1st Timothy 4:1-5
1-Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the FAITH, giving heed to seducing spirits, and the doctrines of devils;
2- Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3-Forbiding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4-For EVERY creature of God is GOOD, and nothing to be refused, IF it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
5-For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Joel

That has been my understanding for a very long time.

But lately, with all these health and food issues all around us, I decided to check my understanding and confirm what He Commands us is good for us.

Kind Regards.

George

 

[cheekie3]

John from Kentucky -

Thank you for Posting this. It is very helpful:

...but he who is weak eats only vegetables.  Romans 14:2

George, you are free to not eat meat.  You are free to eat meat.  The New Covenant does not have a bunch of food rules.

The gist of Romans 14 is we are not to judge one another over food matters, and by implication over other minor things.

We are called to peace and freedom in Jesus.  The Spirit of God guides us in all things.

I have a sister who is a vegan and a believer.

I know we are free to choose whether we eat meat or not.

My point was whether there are still clean and unclean animals that we are Commanded to eat and not eat.

There has been a lot of very good spiritual and Scriptural Wisdom Posted on this Topic; and I am very grateful for all the input.

Kind Regards.

George

[cheekie3]

John from Kentucky -

Thank you. You make a very good point:

I am always amused by wannabe teachers who go into great detail quoting Scriptures in the original languages and discussing fine points of Hebrew and Greek grammar for the benefit of us ignorant ones.  I observe in the Scriptures that Jesus, Paul, John, and other teachers never used that teaching method.

God's Elect are taught by Jesus through the Holy Spirit.  Physical religious teachers have no understanding.

Jesus said His Words are Spirit and they are Life.

The Old Covenant and teachings are done away.  Clean and unclean meats refer to the difference between the Elect and those not chosen at this time.  Jesus fulfilled all things in Himself.

Jesus has set us free from the false teachings of the great false church and its teacher Satan.

Do not allow false teachers to imprison you if Jesus has set you free.

That is why I sought the Truth on this matter from Our Saviour and His Word - as I do not have any trust in mankind (and its teachings in and out of churches) - as we only have One Teacher - Jesus Christ Himself by His Holy Spirit (in us).

He sanctifies the food His Children eat with their prayers and thanksgiving.

Kind Regards.

George