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Author Topic: Daniel, veganism and meat  (Read 6042 times)

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octoberose

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Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2016, 03:39:59 AM »

I'm not sure why this is carnal, when the importance of the subject is the spiritual  -

Romans 14:20,21- Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. It is good not to eat meat and drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 

I Corinthians 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgement on himself.  ***

Ephesians 5:18-20, And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs...

I John 2:16 For all that is in the world- the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and the pride in possessions- is not from the Father is from the world.

Galatians 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

I Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own..

Romans 12:1  I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

Galatians 5:16-26  But I say, walk by the Spirit, and your will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desire of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 

Romans 13:14  But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.

Philippians 3:18-19  For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ.  Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.

I Corinthians, 10:31  So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

And that's just some of the verses in the new testament- I would be writing for long time if I included the old. God is not afraid of this subject- He is not upset by it, not surprised by it. He made us this way. Every dark thing shows up in the light.  There is something here for us to learn- at least for me there is. If it offends you and you think it is just not spiritual enough then leave this alone. But I think you're missing the point.



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cheekie3

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Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2016, 05:44:01 AM »

octoberose -

Thank you for posting these very helpful Scriptures:

I'm not sure why this is carnal, when the importance of the subject is the spiritual  -

Romans 14:20,21- Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. It is good not to eat meat and drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 

I Corinthians 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgement on himself.  ***

Ephesians 5:18-20, And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs...

I John 2:16 For all that is in the world- the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and the pride in possessions- is not from the Father is from the world.

Galatians 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

I Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own..

Romans 12:1  I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

Galatians 5:16-26  But I say, walk by the Spirit, and your will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desire of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 

Romans 13:14  But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.

Philippians 3:18-19  For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ.  Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.

I Corinthians, 10:31  So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

And that's just some of the verses in the new testament- I would be writing for long time if I included the old. God is not afraid of this subject- He is not upset by it, not surprised by it. He made us this way. Every dark thing shows up in the light.  There is something here for us to learn- at least for me there is. If it offends you and you think it is just not spiritual enough then leave this alone. But I think you're missing the point.

Are all men and women living in physical bodies? Are we here on this Forum and on this site only to learn Spiritual Truths, and nothing about our physical well being?

Do we all need to breathe to live? Is breathing a physical necessity? Is there anything spiritual about breathing so we can have our being in our bodies?

Did Ray not say that he did not take good care of his body, and he hoped that others did a better job than he did? Is taking care of our bodies a spiritual or a natural physical matter?

Is smoking, and alcohol, and drug taking harmful to our bodies? Is there anything spiritual about these natural matters?

Is it appropriate to seek answers to the following questions:

1. Are there two or three Scriptural Witnesses to confirm that before Noah's flood, men, women, children, and all other living creatures ate meat?

2. If no creatures or mankind ate meat up to Noah's flood, is it better or worse for mankind (and members of His Elect) to be Vegans today?

3. If acidic foods are bad for our bodies, and alkaline foods (which are in the main, fruit, vegetables, berries, nuts and herbs) are good for our bodies, (as no disease can live in an alkaline environment) - should anyone eat meat (which is acidic)?

4. What (Old and / or) New Testament Scriptures confirm that mankind can now eat any meat from living creatures, since after Noah's flood God Commanded mankind to only eat disease inhibiting animals (and not disease promoting animals); or does Peter's vision about clean and unclean animals, refer both to eating any meat, and also to non-Israelites being granted Salvation by God Himself?

5. Should we be concerned by what is put into our foods today, including GMO, etc, (and I am sure that most of us have suffered the pain of food poisoning at least once in our lives) - or is being prayerfully thankful for our food the way Our Heavenly Father cleanses our food for us?
 
Thank you.

Kind Regards.

George

 
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Doug

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Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2016, 09:13:59 AM »

Hi Octoberose,

I do not think you or anyone here is trying to insist or establish food rules. Everyone is free to choose what they are going to eat and certainly would not judge what others eat. In the scheme of things that is not what we are striving for but to submit to God's will.

While I totally agree avoiding sugar, processed food, GMO, etc. is very helpful to good health it is also true many eat any and everything that we would consider harmful and thrive to an old age. For me and I expect others even food that is supposedly helpful can be very damaging. If these discussions can benefit some then they are useful.

Ray spoke about his diet trying to slow or beat his cancer. To me his was extreme with the amount of vitamins and herbs. However that was the path he took. Ultimately it is in God's hands which is a great comfort. To me it's not about extending life (as if we could) but just feeling as good as possible.

I think in many ways health issues keep us close to God so whatever we struggle with is ultimately a blessing.

I pray for everyone here, this is the place I find comfort.
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2016, 11:10:55 AM »

Dear George,

You are very sorely mistaken about your understanding of acidic and alkaline and how foods alter our bodies PH. To put it shortly, they dont. You lack very very basic understanding of how the body metabolizes food and how its then absorbed. As soon as food hits the stomach it enters a ph environement of roughly 2 and any of the food's own acidic or basic qualities are immediately obliterated in that very acidic stomach. From that point on it is turned into a chyme with the churning and mixing actions of the stomach and digestive enzymes break all food molecules down to their most basic anatomical and molecular structures where they are then absorbed by the junenum, duodenum, and illeum harmlessly. Onceinside the entercytes, many are further packaged and transported through the blood stream attached to chaperone proteins (such as fats and cholesterol transported in chylomicrons, vldl, ldl, ildl, hdl). The bloods PH is very highly regulated to a level of 7.4 which rarely if ever changes except under dire pathological conditions which have nothing to do with "acidic and alkalinic foods." Im talking things like renal failure or respiratory failure.


I dont mean to come off harsh but what you are doing is part of the problem on the internet. The spread of misinformation. If you want to talk about health and disease first understand the most basic of principles. Which you do not. Learn acid and base chemistry and understand biochemistry. Learn amino acids, carbohydrates, lipids, vitamins, and how these many various groups are affected by ph. To do that  this you will need at the very least a year of organic chemistry class to come to any satisfying level of understanding. Then learn all you did in the context of the machine that is the human body which regulates and processes everything you put into it. This requires thorough understanding of the molecular and cellular workings of the body. Meaning basic cell biology, molecular biology, genetic biology, etc... and then the larger systems and subjects such as oncology, hematology, nephrology, pulmonology etc...You can take courses on most of these at your local community college. Once you learn these basic things, then learn about disease processes and pathology but make sure you understand physiology first. Lastly, please do not believe everything you read on the internet. Go to your healthcare professional, whoever your personal doctor is, and speak to them about this subject. You will find that what you thought you knew, you really did not. Its why individuals commit their entire lives studying health and disease. Its not something you learn in the later decades of your life off the internet of all places. Theres lots of bad bad bad wrong out right decietful infornation out there especially on  health. Usually its tied to buying some miracle book on health sold by the website or the websites own "natural" products.

God bless,
Alex

P.S. its not true that no disease can live in alkaline condition. Thats absolute nonsense. If your body becomes too basic, YOU DIE! If your body becomes too acidic, YOU DIE too! Its why the body's blood ph is very tightly regulated at 7.4 and why no food is going to change that. It only changes when their is seriouse disease process at play such as renal failure or respiratory problems.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 11:30:34 AM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

lareli

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Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2016, 06:11:59 PM »

Is there a spiritual component to paying for and consuming tortured animals versus humanely raised animals?

I couldn't do the things that people do to factory farmed animals myself, so there's a spiritual component of hypocrisy for me to pay someone else to do the dirty work. Animals that are suffering from birth to death. I wonder what biological changes occur in an animal that is constantly stressed, afraid, and suffering. Could their suffering be transferred to the consumer on some spiritual level? I dunno.

Alex maybe you could help here. Do biological changes occur when someone is constantly stressed/afraid? Is it different for animals?


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Terry

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Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2016, 07:18:18 PM »

I don't care to much for doctors, mine is always trying to pump terrible drugs in me which I hate not to mention the side effects, I like herbal medicine, I told my Dr. if you really cared for my health you wouldn't be pushing  these horrible drugs on me,
I had one Dr. tell me if I was going to take that snake oil find another Dr. wow. so I did.
Terry

PS JFK love your new profile pic
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Terry

Terry

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Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2016, 07:42:02 PM »

I should have been a little clearer its not the Dr. I dislike its the drugs, my Dr. put me on BP meds which helped a little but side effects was fluid in my legs and pain in my legs so he then give more pills for side effects
Terry
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Terry

John from Kentucky

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Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2016, 07:55:10 PM »

I don't care to much for doctors, mine is always trying to pump terrible drugs in me which I hate not to mention the side effects, I like herbal medicine, I told my Dr. if you really cared for my health you wouldn't be pushing  these horrible drugs on me,
I had one Dr. tell me if I was going to take that snake oil find another Dr. wow. so I did.
Terry

PS JFK love your new profile pic

Thanks Terry.  I have always liked John Wayne.  I chose Rooster Cogburn because of the one eye.  Reminds me of the verse that says if your eye is a cause of sin then pluck it out.  I feel like an old one-eyed cowboy that God has stomped on my whole life.  But He has so far always stood me up and been with me.

Speaking of doctors, I am right now in a hospital emergency room with my mother.  She is having problems and they are running a bunch of tests to find out what is wrong.

I do not feel like John Wayne right now.  I am not in control.  Worried about my mom.  God controls all things. His will be done.  I and my mom need His strength and care.
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Terry

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Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2016, 07:55:21 PM »

Thank you Octoberose for these Scriptures i'm going to put them on my mirror in bathroom and fridge they stood out to me just what I needed

I John 2:16 For all that is in the world- the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and the pride in possessions- is not from the Father is from the world.

Galatians 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Terry
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Terry

Terry

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Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2016, 08:04:09 PM »

God bless you Rooster Cogburn and your Mom hope she gets well real soon, I always liked your straight forward style and the Humor kind of reminds me of John Wayne
Terry
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Terry

lilitalienboi16

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Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2016, 08:12:03 PM »

Is there a spiritual component to paying for and consuming tortured animals versus humanely raised animals?

I couldn't do the things that people do to factory farmed animals myself, so there's a spiritual component of hypocrisy for me to pay someone else to do the dirty work. Animals that are suffering from birth to death. I wonder what biological changes occur in an animal that is constantly stressed, afraid, and suffering. Could their suffering be transferred to the consumer on some spiritual level? I dunno.

Alex maybe you could help here. Do biological changes ocacur when someone is constantly stressed/afraid? Is it different for animals?

Hi Largeli,

Without going into crazy detail, in short, biological changes do occur. You feel those changes when you are afraid and stressed.

There are many changes that occur from central nervous (increased sympathetic tone) and endocrine (hormonal, i.e. increased cortisol release, glucagon etc..) which vastly alter the physiology of the organism. If the stress does not subside, with time, prolonged periods ranging from months to years, pathological and irreversible damage can occur to the organ systems and be detrimental ultimately to the organism. Its why people that are always stressed have increased blood pressure and increased risk for heart attacks, etc... Obviously there are infinitely more risks for those disease states but chronic stress can compound existing risk factors and be the 'straw that broke the camels back so to speak.'

Now the big question is really whether you can 'eat this stress.'

In short, no. Again, without going into too much detail, cooking food denatures enzymes and hormones (which are proteins like cortisol) and render them biologicaly inert. Once they enter your stomach they are further obliterated by the acidic environemt and the follow digestive enzymes which break apart these enzymes and hormones into their most basic inactive parts like monosacharides, lipids, and amino acids.

There are RARE exceptions like the cause behind 'mad cow disease' which turns out to be a misfolded protein that causes other proteins of the same type to misfold creating a perpetual chain of increasingly larger missfolded proetien mass that eventually crowds out and destroys the surrounding tissue. This large group is so tightly folded and dysfunctional that it is resistant to temperatures above normal cooking ranges so it doesn't get destroyed in the cooking process and is resistant to extremely acidic environments like your stomach so it can be ingested and wreak havoc on a person. But when was the last time you heard of someone contracting this extremely rare disease? I think in humans they call it the jacob kilndfelt disease or something. Don't quote me on the spelling. Now this condition itself is not know well how it originally develops to be contracted later but its believed to be due to an inherited mutation in some protein in the brain or due to a denovo mutation which occurs in the individual.

Dear John,

Very sorry about your situation. Know that you and your mother are in my prayers. We can't change His mind but you never know what He has planned. God willing the doctors will figure out what is wrong so they can treat her.

Please keep me up to date if you can!

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

octoberose

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Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2016, 09:30:10 PM »

John, your mom is blessed to have you there with her, being her advocate and giving her the care she needs. Praying that answers will come and health will be restored if God wills it.  I've never 'heard' you so rattled. I'm sorry - I know it's hard.
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octoberose

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Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2016, 10:13:48 PM »

I'm glad this post was helpful to someone.

I don't mean to imply that good health, or a strong body equals spiritual health or indicates 'salvation'. Of course not.  Our bodies could be our own idol. We could think that we are keeping ourselves alive and well, and not the will of God. Human beings could use anything in the world as an idol and have (golden calf anyone?). We are so corrupt when left to our own devices.
 However,
when I have a migraine and it's because I ate something that I know can be a trigger, who am I hurting? I'm hurting not just myself but those who have to take care of me or who I cannot help because I'm at home sick in bed. It's happened many times. And I'm left with wondering what in the world is wrong with me.
 Loving ourselves is part of what we're told to do and I think it's not a bad thing to consider what that means for each of us.
"In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church - for we are members of his body." (Ephesians 5:28-30)   So there we are, instruction to feed and care for our own bodies. The physical showing us the way to the spiritual.

 
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2016, 11:24:37 PM »

Dear All,

It has come to my attention that my posts, especially my reply to george on this page, where offensive and rude.

To George, I am deeply sorry, I meant no offense what so ever. What I said I said in love. If you can believe that... The internet makes it hard to get those feelings across, especially when what you are writing is meant to correct and educate. Its a little easier when we all speak the same language as with scripture but in medicine and all the science involved, its hard, its like i'm speaking another language that even I don't know how to communicate at times.

This is why I was hesitant to join this discussion. It appears I should not participate in these discussions regarding disease, health, nutrition, medicine, vaccines, etc... any longer. I have not figured out a way to communicate what I've learned without it either sounding alien or come off as condescending and arrogant.

Again, George, you know my heart is filled with a deep sincere love for you and I'm so sorry if I hurt you. I am ashamed if that is the case. I can see in my own post where my words may have wounded and I should have been softer, slower, more compassionate, or simply said nothing at all. I think I tried to say too much in one post that could have been broken down into smaller, nicer, slower pieces.

I am making this apology public to anyone else who felt offended by my post. I am sorry to you as well. Know that I care and love you all and my intention was never to wound. I regret how I responded. I just don't know how to deal with the misinformation and the disparity of knowledge that exists in regards to these subjects and the various levels of understanding that everyday folks acquire from their own studies. As you can see I have wrestled with this issue before. I see similar discussions on my facebook page all the time between friends but I stay out of it. I should have done likewise here. I'm still learning.. i'll figure this out God willing. Worst comes to worst i'll just stay out of these discussions. If you ever need my opinion, it'll be there for you.

Sincerely,
Alex
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 11:50:26 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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lostANDfound

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Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2016, 12:44:25 AM »

It's nice to see you owning your mistakes like that Alex. It shows some maturity.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2016, 01:32:39 AM »

Rose, of course there is a spiritual element to everything.  But put two people together who share the same "diet" and one of them may be living in humility while the other is exuding the "pride of life".  There's nothing "spiritual" about the food itself. 

One person's anecdote may be poison to the next person.  No aspersions cast at our cast of characters.   ;D

Alex, sometimes it takes a bit of "forcefulness" to cut through misinformation.  If we are going to hear from "other sides", then I certainly don't want "alternative/internet nutritionists" to be the only voices heard--especially since they often contradict each other.  I, for one, want to hear from you when these issues crop up, and if you think you need to watch your tone, then do so.

For my part, I'm with Extol. 

 
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lostANDfound

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Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2016, 02:03:47 AM »

Some outsiders might describe us here on the forum as a group of people who form an "alternative" religion which we discovered on the internet and which is highly opposed to what the skilled, trained, practiced professionals teach.  Just a thought.
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Doug

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Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2016, 08:16:50 AM »

Hi Alex,

I do not believe you were offensive. It seems to me you are passionate about sharing and helping others, that's a good thing. For me please continue to share your knowledge, it hurts no one to be challenged in their beliefs.

I know Ray spoke of trying to get his body to an alkaline state but found it difficult if not impossible for him. He got me interested in the subject but I had given up on the idea because one I could not do it and was a bit skeptical it was any value. Your post helped me, thank you!

Doug
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2016, 04:45:44 PM »

Some outsiders might describe us here on the forum as a group of people who form an "alternative" religion which we discovered on the internet and which is highly opposed to what the skilled, trained, practiced professionals teach.  Just a thought.

I barely read the thread, and only did so much as I did because it's kinda my job.  I don't know who said what publicly or privately (to Alex).  After 8 years, I have a bit of background in how these discussions pan out.  ALL I said was, "If we are going to hear from "other sides", then I certainly don't want "alternative/internet nutritionists" to be the only voices heard--especially since they often contradict each other."  IF--ONLY.  Big IF.  But IF, then not ONLY. 
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indianabob

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Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2016, 12:20:20 AM »

Dear friend Alex,

Please DO NOT let unfounded criticism of your approach to explanations deter you from participating in discussions of a medical nature. Even doctors learn by stepping out in faith, fearing nothing.
This is a spiritual forum and one of the very necessary lessons we are here to learn is to get rid of an overly sensitive nature or a thin skin. Jesus was the most loving man of all and he did the job he was called to do with his apostles WITHOUT detailed explanation before every move. Jesus said follow me and trust me to lead you according to Father God's will. So if we are here on the forum for our own benefit and spiritual growth as well as in obedience to God then we need to be more circumspect about our tender feelings. If a sports coach took the time to check the sensitive opinions of each player before issuing his instructions that coach would be a failure.
I have to suppose that your approach is one that you will find necessary and expedient in your chosen field. A physician cannot explain the reasons for his advice to every patient, partly because when the patient repeated what he thought the doctor told him he would get it wrong most of the time. I have never been a doctor, but I have been a patient many times and served as counselor to relatives many times over and I have somewhat of an understanding of these matters.
I know that you are very busy and it is expected that your replies may be hurried and still be accurate. So if you must, just apologize for any tender feelings in your first sentence and in the last sentence and then let fly with whatever needs to be said and let everyone's feelings fall where they may.

To those who's feelings may be hurt; please understand that we love you sincerely and please wait a day or two before complaining that someone spoke/wrote too candidly and honestly for your sensibilities. ;D

Ole Indiana bob age 81, married to one woman for 55 years, reared two boys and two girls all of whom still greet me with a hug and a kiss and speak to me about any and every subject and who used to have a reactive temper that God and my patient wife have moderated quite a bit over the years.

Kindly offered in Christian love  :)
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