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God creates evil, is the cause, but doesn't force to do evil

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mikeincanada:
I've been having a little exchange with a local pastor who I know through a friend.  The topic that came up was the Sovereignty of God, He seems to have a unitarian belief, but I had quoted him a few things from Rays free will paper on how God created evil and is using it to bring about a good outcome.

The question came up on how God is the cause of all things, but I said that God didn't force us to murder,etc, because we are drawn away by our own lusts.

It begs the question well is God still the one influencing it to happen, or still the cause?   I'm trying to find a way to explain this better, I've read a number of Rays emails, where he explains that no God didn't force anyone, but how do we reconcile this with the fact that God IS the cause of all things?

Any help would be appreciated!

Mike

Dave in Tenn:
Mike, it's your conversation, so I don't want to wedge myself too deeply in it.  But here's an observation:  In any exchange, it's good if both sides agree on the meaning of the words (and this seems to me to be especially true in discussions of this type).  It seems you and he may be conflating the meanings of "evil" and "sin". 

Here's a fine example:

Joh 9:1  And passing by, He saw a man blind from birth.
Joh 9:2  And His disciples asked Him, saying, Teacher, who sinned, this one, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Joh 9:3  Jesus answered, Neither this one nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God might be revealed in him.
Joh 9:4  It behooves Me to work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day. Night comes when no one is able to work.
Joh 9:5  While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.

To be born blind is an evil, but it is neither a sin nor (necessarily) the result of a sin.  "...God created evil and is using it to bring about a good outcome." 

Headaches, sickness, earthquakes, etc are "evils".  They are not sins. 

Evil is contrasted with Good.  These are the "big things" contained in the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.  Sins (and all their relatives) are part of the experience of Evil, but experiencing Evil is not necessarily sin.

Did God influence Eve to eat of the fruit?  He set the tree in the midst of the garden and made it beautiful to look at.  If that is "influence", then God did "influence" Eve to eat.  But I think of it more as God set the stage (both in the placing of the fruit and in the forming of Eve) and made the eating of the fruit the only possible outcome.  What "influenced" her was her own lust and the enticement and lie of the devil to fulfill them.

Now, if God had not made the tree, nothing would have happened.  If God had not formed Eve weak as He did, nothing would have happened.  And if you carry that back to the "beginning", He made all things and without Him nothing was made.  But just as he said, "Let the earth bring forth..." in Genesis 1, what comes out of His creation is also a part of His creation.

Instead of seeing myself as a puppet, I think of myself as more of a marionette.  Some of the strings that operate me are very long.  Some are very short.  Some are outside of me, and some are inside.  Some cause other agents to pull mine.  And the great majority are not connected to me directly at all, but to other marionettes in the play.  Of course, we're not marionettes.  We have minds, emotions, and wills.  We just don't have the deciding access to the "strings" that operate these things.

I'll stop there, lest my "figure of speech" replace the sound words of Scripture.           

   

lilitalienboi16:
Mike,

Its probably best to avoid trying to convince anyone, let alone your pastor, unless they approach you and ask you for the reason of your hope. Peter was over zealous in his new found conviction for the Lord and ended up only cutting off ears in the process.

It takes a long time before one can stand before the snakes and wolves. Until then, theyll eat you for breakfest.

Ray had a unique ministry by God and was constantly on the front of the assaults made on God's Word. We are not all called for that.

To answer you in brief,

God does not do evil nor make us sin ("let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God, for God tempts no man'). Man volunteers to sin with little outside influence. God has a plan He set in motion a long time ago which involved creating His own adversary to do the dirty work, God created evil, and made man subject to moral futility because of a weak heart He gave man. When God brings His spirit in us He begins a work which He will complete that in the end conforms us to God's very spiritual image. For all these reasons God takes responsibility for sin and the process of saving mankind ('Who can be saved? With men this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible') and for these reasons also man is accountable for his sins. Without the spirit of God we are slaves to sin, the beast within is powerful, as Paul said, 'there is none good, no, not one,' but with the Lord we come to a place in our lives where sin no longer reigns in us and when He appears, we shall finally put off this flesh and be birthed into His kingdom, invisible and powerful like the wind--Immortal--The Sons and Daughters of God.

Without God there is nothing. All things have their cohesion in Jesus. He is the ultimate cause of everything as it all goes back to Him for the creation is out and through Him and to Him. But, just because God is the original and ultimate cause does not mean He needs to directly cause anyone to sin nor does He need to tempt directly, because of the way He perfectly planned out and created all things, Its practically automatic. God is working all things after the law of His own will.
Hope this helps some.

God bless,
Alex

Dennis Vogel:
Copied from Ray's "IN THE DAY OF THE GREAT SLAUGHTER, WHEN THE TOWERS FALL" paper:

"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there if none beside Me. I AM THE LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL [Heb: ra--#7451, ‘bad, evil.’ Same word translated "evil" 442 times in the Old Testament]." (Isaiah 45:6-7).

"Out of the mouth of the Most High proceeds not EVIL and good?" (Lam. 3:38).

"…and experience of EVIL has God given to the sons of man to humble him thereby" (Ecc. 1:13, Concordant Old Testament).

"…I [the Lord] will raise up EVIL against you out of your own house…" (II Sam. 12:11).

"…I [the Lord] will bring EVIL from the north, and a great destruction" (Jer. 4:6).

"…thus said the Lord, Behold, I frame EVIL against you, and devise a device against you…" (Jer. 18:11).

"…so shall the Lord bring upon you ALL EVIL THINGS, until He have destroyed you from off this good land… (Josh. 23:15).

"What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God and shall we not receive EVIL?..." (Job 2:10).

"…shall there be EVIL IN A CITY [New York City?] and the LORD has not done it?" (Amos 3:6).

Etc., etc.

stello:
Thanks all for your response to the original topic. Alex and Dave you both explained so eloquently. Thank you Dennis for those scriptures as well.

Hi Mike, i've learned that unless God calls someone gives them an ear to hear His word, nothing any human can do to change their minds. Yes we must try to be ready to give an answer for the hope that we have but trying to convince anyone of the truth of God's word is not going to go well  :-\. But we have the assurance from God that everything is working according to His plan and purpose so no need to worry!!!

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