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Can he come today?
indianabob:
Hi folks,
Seems as if all of society is afraid to die especially in some gruesome manner. It also seems that having to be the executioner is a repulsive idea and understandably so.
= =
So I'm asking from the perspective of an old man of 81 who has seen a lot of death of friends and relatives and learned that many old people who have suffered in life are truly ready to accept death as a release from suffering and whether God is not truly being merciful to end the life of disobedient people, even whole populations when God knows their suffering from an intimate perspective.
Just thinking about it I wonder if we would view death differently if God had just put the whole population to sleep, removed His life force from them and then sent the Israelites into the area to bury them.
In other words, no killing of men, women and children by the people of God so that they, God's people didn't have to see the blood and hear the cries of anguish and fear and learn the hard lesson of the consequences of disobedience.
= =
What if God just inspired the leaders to gather the disobedient people together and have them migrate to another area hundreds of miles away where they could live out their existence and then the people of God would just move into a ready made city with no personal effort and without having to trust God for their safety.
I wonder whether we are making too much out of a person's life being cut short.
e.g. "they were too young to die" or their family will miss them so much and may grieve for years and not be able to cope with life apart from their loved one. Aren't these the thoughts and concerns of people who "know not God"?
It may be helpful to consider that God knows what is best for us and if we are sinning to our own hurt and learning habits that will make our lives unbearable such as drugs and crime and other unfulfilling experiences, that it is better to be put to sleep and then brought back when society world wide is under the loving control of our Lord Jesus.
That is what I would prefer for myself or my family members.
Indiana bob
Dave in Tenn:
Brenda and Bob. Excellent.
George, if I were translating the word most often translated "evil", I would translate it "Bad". I'd prefer Bad to Evil because Bad carries much less theological baggage. The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad. Both are simple enough for children, yet broad enough to allow the passages in which they are found to indicate "in what way good or bad" or "how good and bad". And they are flexible enough to let growing people actually recognize the difference without religio-speak as they live their lives and experience both.
Now then. I'm a word kinda guy. That's how I think, and how I study. But I know the warning against undue strife over words. Sometimes, however, there is a spot for DUE strife over words. Take away ALL emphasis on "words" from Ray's articles, and they would turn into Ray's pamphlets. :D
OK, imagine you're me for a moment at this very moment. You want very much to communicate something that you know to be good, but you know that this will cause some confusion and turn people away because you're not able to articulate it precisely enough for a web-forum. Confusion is bad. Turning people away is bad. I don't want to do that or have that be result of what I do.
If you can successfully imagine that, then you have a good idea what Paul was saying about his own DOING, and a far better idea than most theologians, arm-chair or professional.
The GOOD that I would do, that I don't do. The BAD that I would NOT do, that I do. Because I'm just me, too weak, un-gifted, and lacking. What a mess. Who can deliver me from this body of death?
cheekie3:
Bob -
You raise a very interesting Perspective of death, and the fear of death:
--- Quote from: indianabob on November 25, 2016, 02:18:35 PM ---Hi folks,
Seems as if all of society is afraid to die especially in some gruesome manner. It also seems that having to be the executioner is a repulsive idea and understandably so.
= =
So I'm asking from the perspective of an old man of 81 who has seen a lot of death of friends and relatives and learned that many old people who have suffered in life are truly ready to accept death as a release from suffering and whether God is not truly being merciful to end the life of disobedient people, even whole populations when God knows their suffering from an intimate perspective.
Just thinking about it I wonder if we would view death differently if God had just put the whole population to sleep, removed His life force from them and then sent the Israelites into the area to bury them.
In other words, no killing of men, women and children by the people of God so that they, God's people didn't have to see the blood and hear the cries of anguish and fear and learn the hard lesson of the consequences of disobedience.
= =
What if God just inspired the leaders to gather the disobedient people together and have them migrate to another area hundreds of miles away where they could live out their existence and then the people of God would just move into a ready made city with no personal effort and without having to trust God for their safety.
I wonder whether we are making too much out of a person's life being cut short.
e.g. "they were too young to die" or their family will miss them so much and may grieve for years and not be able to cope with life apart from their loved one. Aren't these the thoughts and concerns of people who "know not God"?
It may be helpful to consider that God knows what is best for us and if we are sinning to our own hurt and learning habits that will make our lives unbearable such as drugs and crime and other unfulfilling experiences, that it is better to be put to sleep and then brought back when society world wide is under the loving control of our Lord Jesus.
That is what I would prefer for myself or my family members.
Indiana bob
--- End quote ---
I am no longer afraid of death, as I know it is not the end of me - but I used to fear death for my family and myself.
Your points are all very valid, and from my perspective, all Scripturally sound.
Offcourse, He is Our Loving Heavenly Father, who always knows what is best for each and everyone of His Children, including the disobedient and wicked ones - and He shares all our suffering and pain with us, each step of the way.
Thank you for sharing this with us.
Warmrest Regards.
George
cheekie3:
Dave -
Thank you for articulating your thought process so well; as you do most of the time, apart from when you deliberately use 'cryptic language' in order to make us think a little deeper:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on November 25, 2016, 05:55:12 PM ---Brenda and Bob. Excellent.
George, if I were translating the word most often translated "evil", I would translate it "Bad". I'd prefer Bad to Evil because Bad carries much less theological baggage. The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad. Both are simple enough for children, yet broad enough to allow the passages in which they are found to indicate "in what way good or bad" or "how good and bad". And they are flexible enough to let growing people actually recognize the difference without religio-speak as they live their lives and experience both.
Now then. I'm a word kinda guy. That's how I think, and how I study. But I know the warning against undue strife over words. Sometimes, however, there is a spot for DUE strife over words. Take away ALL emphasis on "words" from Ray's articles, and they would turn into Ray's pamphlets. :D
OK, imagine you're me for a moment at this very moment. You want very much to communicate something that you know to be good, but you know that this will cause some confusion and turn people away because you're not able to articulate it precisely enough for a web-forum. Confusion is bad. Turning people away is bad. I don't want to do that or have that be result of what I do.
If you can successfully imagine that, then you have a good idea what Paul was saying about his own DOING, and a far better idea than most theologians, arm-chair or professional.
The GOOD that I would do, that I don't do. The BAD that I would NOT do, that I do. Because I'm just me, too weak, un-gifted, and lacking. What a mess. Who can deliver me from this body of death?
--- End quote ---
All of what you have scribed above, is true - and I agree with all that you have said - including how meticulous Ray was with the true meaning of words.
I am grateful to know how considerate you are not to confuse - yet you have a strong desire not to mislead us.
I fully understand the physical and spiritual significance of Paul's inspired words about himself and each and every one of us - and it took me a lot more than five (5) minutes to get His Understanding of these (His) Words.
Your choice of word to replace 'Evil' with 'Bad' has impact - but unfortunately being 'Bad' today is not so easily understood, anymore than being 'Evil' - hence the dilemma we have.
If I may, I believe, you and I (and I think all of us on this Forum) do in fact agree, at least on the following being True:
1. We should all know that 'not doing Good' to others is contrary to God's Law and Commandments on how we live our daily lives.
2. When anyone of us 'Sins', it is 'not doing Good' - as we break His Law on how we should live our daily lives.
3. God can use 'Evil' from our perspective - to do 'Good' (as indianabob pointed out in his Post on this Thread) from His Perspective, by ending say, a long suffering drug addict's life - to end their pain and suffering, as well as that experienced by their loved ones.
But, without us going through every word translated 'Evil', it is not clear to those 'Without His Knowledge' to understand exactly what any particular Scripture really means when 'Evil' is used (and that is why I always look at the heart desire of anyone doing 'Evil' or 'Bad' - like stealing bread to feed your family is wrong (as we should not steal), from God's Perspective, who judges us all according to the desires in our hearts, this is not classified as 'Evil'.
For example, take:
Revelation 2:2 (KJV)
I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
I understand this to mean that the 'Angel at the Church of Ephesus' tried those calling themselves Apostles in the congregation and found them to be liars and 'Evil' as they pretended to represent His Gospel but were not His Apostles; and the 'Evil' (or 'Bad') here, to me, means that He Revealed to the 'Angel at the Church of Ephesus' that those Apostles were false with 'Evil' intent in their hearts to deceive the congregation.
I am very pleased that we have had this exchange of Posts, so that we can all reflect on His Truths for ourselves and gain greater Understanding.
And I hope I have not caused any confusion with my Posts.
Warmest Regards.
George
lauriellen:
Thank you Indianabob. I have been meditating on your words and find them to be very wise and healing. I really needed your reminder.
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