Book of Enoch

[Musterseed]

Me too Dennis, I so needed to hear that. Thankyou. I feel a weight lifted of me and my heart
Feels so much better. God Bless you.

[Dennis Vogel]

This is one of my favorites: https://youtu.be/hPCKPzKz0yU

[John from Kentucky]

Pamela -

The Old Testament is much harder to understand than the New Testament:

Thank you all for your kind reassurance . I think I was so excited about finally getting on the forum
That I was a little too eager to offer my input. I felt like I had a bunch of friends in my house and I finally could talk to some one, but I realize now that I need to be more quiet and study more  and pay attention.You are all so versed in Scripture and although I understand the NT quite well, THe Lord had me read the bible back to front for some reason, and I don't ever question HIm, I am having trouble understanding the OT. For some reason my brain is not wrapping around it. I guess it will come when the Lord is ready, not me. In The meantime everything for me is. "These things must happen." it is Written ", "Thy will be done" and don't answer back to your Father. Lol
So I think I will be posting less and studying more, tonight I studied LOF X11.  Thankyou and May
God Bless all of you and your loved ones.                   Pamela 🙏🏼

One of the hardest things I struggle with is that Our God is the same God in both the Old Testament and the New Testament - yet, in the Old Testament, Our God killed a multitude of people, and Commanded the Israelites to kill their enemies (because the other nations obeyed other gods) - whereas, in the New Testament, His Elect are Commanded to love their enemies, and not repay them evil for evil.

He hardened Pharaoh, and He changed Saul (into Paul).

Perhaps, one day, He will reveal and reconcile the Old and New Testaments to me.

I know that He will Save All (and cleanse All) - but I would like to know why killing was Commanded in the Old Testament, and Love is Commanded in the New Testament - especially, as The books of 'Proverbs' and 'Psalms' are full of aspects of 'His Love'.

Warmest Regards.

George

There are no true, genuine contradictions with our Great God, which includes His two witnesses, the Old Testament  Scriptures and the New Testament Scriptures.

Every human was given life by God and every human's life has been or will be taken by Him.  The Scriptures say that birds do not die without his say, much less humans who are his seed and family.

Everyone's path is directed by God.  Some are vessels of honor, some vessels of dishonor.  All as the Potter decides.  Does the thing created tell the Creator, "Why do You do things this way ?"

[Musterseed]

Thankyou Dennis,
Everything he went through and still could make us laugh. God Bless Him. I will give him a hug one day, I know it.🙏🏼

[cheekie3]

John -

Thank you for confirming that The Scriptures do not contradict. It is very thoughtful of you; and I wholeheartedly agree with your Scriptural Statements below:

Pamela -

The Old Testament is much harder to understand than the New Testament:

Thank you all for your kind reassurance . I think I was so excited about finally getting on the forum
That I was a little too eager to offer my input. I felt like I had a bunch of friends in my house and I finally could talk to some one, but I realize now that I need to be more quiet and study more  and pay attention.You are all so versed in Scripture and although I understand the NT quite well, THe Lord had me read the bible back to front for some reason, and I don't ever question HIm, I am having trouble understanding the OT. For some reason my brain is not wrapping around it. I guess it will come when the Lord is ready, not me. In The meantime everything for me is. "These things must happen." it is Written ", "Thy will be done" and don't answer back to your Father. Lol
So I think I will be posting less and studying more, tonight I studied LOF X11.  Thankyou and May
God Bless all of you and your loved ones.                   Pamela 🙏🏼

One of the hardest things I struggle with is that Our God is the same God in both the Old Testament and the New Testament - yet, in the Old Testament, Our God killed a multitude of people, and Commanded the Israelites to kill their enemies (because the other nations obeyed other gods) - whereas, in the New Testament, His Elect are Commanded to love their enemies, and not repay them evil for evil.

He hardened Pharaoh, and He changed Saul (into Paul).

Perhaps, one day, He will reveal and reconcile the Old and New Testaments to me.

I know that He will Save All (and cleanse All) - but I would like to know why killing was Commanded in the Old Testament, and Love is Commanded in the New Testament - especially, as The books of 'Proverbs' and 'Psalms' are full of aspects of 'His Love'.

Warmest Regards.

George

There are no true, genuine contradictions with our Great God, which includes His two witnesses, the Old Testament  Scriptures and the New Testament Scriptures.

Every human was given life by God and every human's life has been or will be taken by Him.  The Scriptures say that birds do not die without his say, much less humans who are his seed and family.

Everyone's path is directed by God.  Some are vessels of honor, some vessels of dishonor.  All as the Potter decides.  Does the thing created tell the Creator, "Why do You do things this way ?"

I am not answering back to The Potter - I have, and will continue to Seek His Face, for His Truths (as He is Our Loving Heavenly Father).

Are we not to seek His knowledge, His Understanding and His Wisdom?

Are we not to have answers to questions we are asked, particularly from non believers?

Do not the majority of people not find it hard to fit together segments of The Old Testament with the Teachings of The New Testament?

Although The Same God, does it not appear, that The God of The Old Testament is a 'God of War', whereas The God of The New Testament is a 'God of Love'?

How would you answer a non believer if they were to ask you 'How come your God killed lots of people in The Old Testament, yet in The New Testament He Commands you not to kill, but to love your enemies'?

I have heard some say that it used to be 'an eye for an eye' but no longer, as He will avenge or judge for us.

I personally, do not know how to answer this particular question.

Warmest Regards.

George

[cheekie3]

Dennis -

Thank you for Posting this audio:

This is one of my favorites: https://youtu.be/hPCKPzKz0yU

This too, is one of my favourites, as Ray (despite his suffering and pain) talked about his knowledge and experience of life, and made us all laugh at ourselves.

We can all identify with what Ray said.

Warmest Regards.

George

[John from Kentucky]

John -

Thank you for confirming that The Scriptures do not contradict. It is very thoughtful of you; and I wholeheartedly agree with your Scriptural Statements below:

Pamela -

The Old Testament is much harder to understand than the New Testament:

Thank you all for your kind reassurance . I think I was so excited about finally getting on the forum
That I was a little too eager to offer my input. I felt like I had a bunch of friends in my house and I finally could talk to some one, but I realize now that I need to be more quiet and study more  and pay attention.You are all so versed in Scripture and although I understand the NT quite well, THe Lord had me read the bible back to front for some reason, and I don't ever question HIm, I am having trouble understanding the OT. For some reason my brain is not wrapping around it. I guess it will come when the Lord is ready, not me. In The meantime everything for me is. "These things must happen." it is Written ", "Thy will be done" and don't answer back to your Father. Lol
So I think I will be posting less and studying more, tonight I studied LOF X11.  Thankyou and May
God Bless all of you and your loved ones.                   Pamela 🙏🏼

One of the hardest things I struggle with is that Our God is the same God in both the Old Testament and the New Testament - yet, in the Old Testament, Our God killed a multitude of people, and Commanded the Israelites to kill their enemies (because the other nations obeyed other gods) - whereas, in the New Testament, His Elect are Commanded to love their enemies, and not repay them evil for evil.

He hardened Pharaoh, and He changed Saul (into Paul).

Perhaps, one day, He will reveal and reconcile the Old and New Testaments to me.

I know that He will Save All (and cleanse All) - but I would like to know why killing was Commanded in the Old Testament, and Love is Commanded in the New Testament - especially, as The books of 'Proverbs' and 'Psalms' are full of aspects of 'His Love'.

Warmest Regards.

George

There are no true, genuine contradictions with our Great God, which includes His two witnesses, the Old Testament  Scriptures and the New Testament Scriptures.

Every human was given life by God and every human's life has been or will be taken by Him.  The Scriptures say that birds do not die without his say, much less humans who are his seed and family.

Everyone's path is directed by God.  Some are vessels of honor, some vessels of dishonor.  All as the Potter decides.  Does the thing created tell the Creator, "Why do You do things this way ?"

I am not answering back to The Potter - I have, and will continue to Seek His Face, for His Truths (as He is Our Loving Heavenly Father).

Are we not to seek His knowledge, His Understanding and His Wisdom?

Are we not to have answers to questions we are asked, particularly from non believers?

Do not the majority of people not find it hard to fit together segments of The Old Testament with the Teachings of The New Testament?

Although The Same God, does it not appear, that The God of The Old Testament is a 'God of War', whereas The God of The New Testament is a 'God of Love'?

How would you answer a non believer if they were to ask you 'How come your God killed lots of people in The Old Testament, yet in The New Testament He Commands you not to kill, but to love your enemies'?

I have heard some say that it used to be 'an eye for an eye' but no longer, as He will avenge or judge for us.

I personally, do not know how to answer this particular question.

Warmest Regards.

George

I would rather have a double root canal than discuss Scriptures with an unbeliever.  It is a waste of time.  God is not saving the vast majority of mankind at this time, which is why He spoke to them in parables.

But if pushed into a corner, I would quote the words of that mean Old Covenant God straight out of the Old Testament.  "...You shall love your neighbor as yourself..."  Lev 19:18

[cheekie3]

John -

Thank you for responding to the question I raised:

John -

Thank you for confirming that The Scriptures do not contradict. It is very thoughtful of you; and I wholeheartedly agree with your Scriptural Statements below:

Pamela -

The Old Testament is much harder to understand than the New Testament:

Thank you all for your kind reassurance . I think I was so excited about finally getting on the forum
That I was a little too eager to offer my input. I felt like I had a bunch of friends in my house and I finally could talk to some one, but I realize now that I need to be more quiet and study more  and pay attention.You are all so versed in Scripture and although I understand the NT quite well, THe Lord had me read the bible back to front for some reason, and I don't ever question HIm, I am having trouble understanding the OT. For some reason my brain is not wrapping around it. I guess it will come when the Lord is ready, not me. In The meantime everything for me is. "These things must happen." it is Written ", "Thy will be done" and don't answer back to your Father. Lol
So I think I will be posting less and studying more, tonight I studied LOF X11.  Thankyou and May
God Bless all of you and your loved ones.                   Pamela 🙏🏼

One of the hardest things I struggle with is that Our God is the same God in both the Old Testament and the New Testament - yet, in the Old Testament, Our God killed a multitude of people, and Commanded the Israelites to kill their enemies (because the other nations obeyed other gods) - whereas, in the New Testament, His Elect are Commanded to love their enemies, and not repay them evil for evil.

He hardened Pharaoh, and He changed Saul (into Paul).

Perhaps, one day, He will reveal and reconcile the Old and New Testaments to me.

I know that He will Save All (and cleanse All) - but I would like to know why killing was Commanded in the Old Testament, and Love is Commanded in the New Testament - especially, as The books of 'Proverbs' and 'Psalms' are full of aspects of 'His Love'.

Warmest Regards.

George

There are no true, genuine contradictions with our Great God, which includes His two witnesses, the Old Testament  Scriptures and the New Testament Scriptures.

Every human was given life by God and every human's life has been or will be taken by Him.  The Scriptures say that birds do not die without his say, much less humans who are his seed and family.

Everyone's path is directed by God.  Some are vessels of honor, some vessels of dishonor.  All as the Potter decides.  Does the thing created tell the Creator, "Why do You do things this way ?"

I am not answering back to The Potter - I have, and will continue to Seek His Face, for His Truths (as He is Our Loving Heavenly Father).

Are we not to seek His knowledge, His Understanding and His Wisdom?

Are we not to have answers to questions we are asked, particularly from non believers?

Do not the majority of people not find it hard to fit together segments of The Old Testament with the Teachings of The New Testament?

Although The Same God, does it not appear, that The God of The Old Testament is a 'God of War', whereas The God of The New Testament is a 'God of Love'?

How would you answer a non believer if they were to ask you 'How come your God killed lots of people in The Old Testament, yet in The New Testament He Commands you not to kill, but to love your enemies'?

I have heard some say that it used to be 'an eye for an eye' but no longer, as He will avenge or judge for us.

I personally, do not know how to answer this particular question.

Warmest Regards.

George

I would rather have a double root canal than discuss Scriptures with an unbeliever.  It is a waste of time.  God is not saving the vast majority of mankind at this time, which is why He spoke to them in parables.

But if pushed into a corner, I would quote the words of that mean Old Covenant God straight out of the Old Testament.  "...You shall love your neighbor as yourself..."  Lev 19:18

However, if you did quote Lev 19:18 - how does that address the fact that Our God killed people and Commanded the Israelites to kill their enemies in the Old Testament?

Unless I am missing something, I do not see how this would answer the question; as it would leave the unbeliever even more confused - as 'how can you love your neighbour' yet 'kill them at the same time' - and we are told in the New Testament that our neighbour is everyone, which includes our enemies.

Kind Regards.

George

[Extol]

Dear George,

Do not be troubled by this hypothetical unbeliever. If an unbeliever is demanding an explanation for old Testament violence, he is almost certainly not interested in the truths of God. If he doesn't accept your explanation, so what? Having a satisfactory answer for old Testament violence isn't going to transform him into one of the elect of God, when he isn't even one of the called.

You ask--or the hypothetical unbeliever asked --how you can love your neighbor and kill him. Hasn't God done that throughout the ages? God is love, and he has killed many many people. The God who commanded the Hebrews to kill and said "love your enemies" is the same God who sends judgment and kills today. If you believe God is sovereign, even when something like WW2 happens, why is it so inconceivable that God would kill a relatively small nation of wicked humans a few thousand years ago? Sometimes he sends a flood, sometimes he has other humans do it.

This is not to say I take pleasure in this...and God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked either. But the wages of sin is death--that's God's word-- and sinners have to die. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Sometimes sinners die peacefully in their sleep....other times they suffer terrible deaths. We can't possibly know every man's story, nor is it our business to know why and how and when they die. However it's done, they all have to die...and they all have to come back to life. That's God's word too.

[cheekie3]

Jesse -

Thank you for pointing out that Our God is Love and killing is part of life, as is sin and death - and also, that there will be given By Him, new life to all:

Dear George,

Do not be troubled by this hypothetical unbeliever. If an unbeliever is demanding an explanation for old Testament violence, he is almost certainly not interested in the truths of God. If he doesn't accept your explanation, so what? Having a satisfactory answer for old Testament violence isn't going to transform him into one of the elect of God, when he isn't even one of the called.

You ask--or the hypothetical unbeliever asked --how you can love your neighbor and kill him. Hasn't God done that throughout the ages? God is love, and he has killed many many people. The God who commanded the Hebrews to kill and said "love your enemies" is the same God who sends judgment and kills today. If you believe God is sovereign, even when something like WW2 happens, why is it so inconceivable that God would kill a relatively small nation of wicked humans a few thousand years ago? Sometimes he sends a flood, sometimes he has other humans do it.

This is not to say I take pleasure in this...and God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked either. But the wages of sin is death--that's God's word-- and sinners have to die. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Sometimes sinners die peacefully in their sleep....other times they suffer terrible deaths. We can't possibly know every man's story, nor is it our business to know why and how and when they die. However it's done, they all have to die...and they all have to come back to life. That's God's word too.

I do not want to make more of this than the simple question - which is simply this - God's People were Commanded to kill their enemies in the Old Testament, and God's People are Commanded to 'Love' and 'do Good' to their enemies in the New Testament.

I know He is Our God in both Testaments, and in all time.

I understand that the Old Covenant was changed into the New Covenant, because God proved that, by ourselves and without His Holy Spirit, not one of us can by our own works 'do Right'.

I have to date not found the answer to this particular question - and I know that some believe that the reference that Jesus made when He said 'you have heard of old that you must kill your enemies - but I say unto you that you must love your enemies, and do good to them' was referring to what people said, rather than His Commandments - but we have Scriptural references of God Himself killing people (including Israelites) and where He Commanded His People to kill their enemies.

I have asked this question directly to Our Heavenly Father, and to me, there must be a reason for the 'change' in His Commandment(s) regarding His Peoples' enemies; and why His People (Natural Israel) were then Commanded to kill their enemies, and now His People (Spiritual Israel) are Commanded to 'Love' their enemies and to 'do Good' to them (and not to do 'Evil' to them).

Warmest Regards.

George

 

[cheekie3]

All -

I found the answer I was looking for in an old thread on this Forum:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2965.0.html

Fot those that do not have the time to go through all four (4) pages of this particular Thread, please note that the answer I was looking for, is from Eric Steven in Post 65 (repeated below):

ericsteven

    Guest

Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #65 on: January 09, 2007, 04:12:15 AM »
Hi all,

My name is Eric, and I am new to the forum.  I have enjoyed very much reading everyone's insights into this as well as other topics on the sight.  I'd thought I'd perhaps share my thoughts and/or insights on this topic.

Sorin acknowledges in his post that he understands "that God is God and He does as He pleases, He can create life and He can kill it and there's nothing we can do about it anymore than there's something we can do about being born or not."  And most if not all who have responded agree.  God's sovereignty is not in doubt.  The question is why would God seemingly contradict himself by saying "Thou shalt not kill" and then commanding the Israelites to kill their neighbors?

The verses that Sorin quoted in his initial post are from Duet 20.

First of all, when going to war against their enemies, the Lord commanded them:

Deut 20:10ff:

When you march up to attack a city, makes its people an offer of peace.  11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.

Sounds pretty reasonable to me.  It is only if the people do not accept the offer of peace and then go ahead and engage the Israelites in battle, that the Lord (verse 13) "delivers it into your hand, [putting] to the sword all the men in it."

In regards to the belief that when the scripture says in Deut 20:14, "but the women....take unto thyself," that God is commanding the Israelite men to rape them, we only need to look back a few chapters to Deuteronomy 12:10 to see how God command the Israelites to treat their female captives.

Deut 12.10ff:

When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

There is nothing is this command that convinces me that what God was referring to in Deut 20:14 was rape or adultery.

Now the above commands only apply to the nations that God is not giving the Israelites as an inheritance.  In regards to the cities of the nations that God is giving to the Israelites as an inheritance, God commands the Israelites to completely destroy them in Deut 20:17.  We only need to look to the following verse to understand why God gave this command.

Deut 20:18

Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.

and also Deut 18:14

The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination.  But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so.

So it's clear, at least to me, that God has given them the Ten Commandments telling them what not to do.  And in order to keep them from falling into sin, it is imperative to annihilate these people.

But of course, we know that they failed miserably with this command, which is why they were more often than not, it seems, looked at unfavoringly by the Lord.

I don't know if this was helpful, but I would like acknowledge one more thing that Sorin said in one of his follow up posts.  He said that he "is OK with being confused with the topic."  I, too, am perfectly Ok with being confused or being in the dark on certain things relating to how God works the way he does.  I take comfort from one of Peter's final moments with Jesus as recorded in the Book of John.  After Jesus predicts the manner in which Peter would endure death to glorify God, Peter turns and sees John following them.  Peter turns to Jesus and asks, "Lord, what about him?"  To which Jesus responds, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?  You must follow me."  In other words, (and I pray that I'm not "putting words" in Jesus's mouth) Don't worry about how I choose to glorify myself in others, which I would think includes our enemies.  Just focus on the work that I have called you to do.  That will be enough.

God's blessings to everyone,

Eric



I encourage you all to read all of the Posts on this Thread, as a lot of valuable 'Truth' nuggets are in there; and some are from Kat.

Warmest Regards.

George

[lilitalienboi16]

I would also add that killing by God is not a sin. God alone has the power to make alive therefor it would seem to me that when He kills it is lawful and right.

Deuteronomy 32:38-40
39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

Also Hannah herself by inspiration of God speaks these same words:

1 Sam 2:6 6 The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

Remember that the days of our lives are numbered and the boundaries of our habitations have been established by God. We cannot go beyond them. Is it so shocking then that we should live or die by His command?

God is the original cause of all things. He needs no excuses or justifications. His plan is perfect and I have no doubt He will succeed in all He does. He gives life to all and is in the process of transforming His race into His very image that we, like Him, may inherit all things. A small price to pay for the glory that is to come.

Romans 8:16-21
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

God bless,
Alex

[cheekie3]

Alex -

Thank you for sharing this about Our Loving Heavenly Father, and that All that He Does is Perfect and Always Right:

I would also add that killing by God is not a sin. God alone has the power to make alive therefor it would seem to me that when He kills it is lawful and right.

Deuteronomy 32:38-40
39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

Also Hannah herself by inspiration of God speaks these same words:

1 Sam 2:6 6 The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

Remember that the days of our lives are numbered and the boundaries of our habitations have been established by God. We cannot go beyond them. Is it so shocking then that we should live or die by His command?

God is the original cause of all things. He needs no excuses or justifications. His plan is perfect and I have no doubt He will succeed in all He does. He gives life to all and is in the process of transforming His race into His very image that we, like Him, may inherit all things. A small price to pay for the glory that is to come.

Romans 8:16-21
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

God bless,
Alex

Warmest Regards.

George

[Joel]

The way I see it, God the creator set everything in motion by saying,"Let there be", and the evidence of that command is seen in Ecclesiastes 3:1-8. To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven.
Note verse 8; A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

The time of peace that is coming, will far out weigh all the other things that we view as negative.

Joel