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[cheekie3]

Dennis -

Wow!

I will try and respond to each of your points:

However, Our Heavenly Father (as far as The Holy Scriptures Declare) is Spirit and does not have a 'Body' or is ever referred to as a 'Man' - whereas Jesus did indeed have a 'Body of a Man' when in a physical body, and The Scriptures also state that as well as being 'like' a Man, Jesus now, is indeed a 'Man' of 'The Man' (the original prototype).

If Jesus (now) did not have a 'Spiritual Body of a Man', how on Earth are His Elect ever going to 'see Him as He is', as no man can ever see Spirit - and even if His Elect when raised with Spiritual Bodies were to see 'Him as He is' with say, perhaps, 'spiritual eyes', it still begs the question, how on Earth can His Elect see 'Spirit' or 'Jesus without a Body'. Off course I am assuming that it is 'Jesus' that His Elect will see 'Him face to Face' - but the same point still applies, if it was either 'Our Heavenly Father' or both 'The Father and The Son'.

To me, The Father provided His Son with a natural Body, which after Jesus died, was Resurrected into a Spiritual Body - and Jesus appeared in this Spiritual Body to His Disciples, Apostles and others in this Spiritual Body (and ate fish with this Spiritual Body) - and The Scriptures clearly state that 'This Same Jesus (In His Spiritual Body) who went up to Heaven will return to Earth in The Clouds.

So, I cannot from The Holy Scriptures discount the Verses that clearly state that Jesus is 'now' a 'Man', or that 'He will return as He Is - In His Resurrected Spiritual Body as a Man'.

Luk 2:13  And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,

We know there are angels, perhaps millions of them. Don't they somehow 'see' or recognize each other?

Joh 14:9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Jesus has seen His Father and if we've seen Him we've seen the Father. Certainly Jesus was not talking about his physical body.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Changed from what to what? From this physical body into something different.

Exo 33:20  And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

This is not the body of an earthly man.

1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Just a little like Him or a lot like Him? But for sure something greater than a fleshly, earthly man.

I suggest it is a spiritual body that 'appears' as a man as shown to the Apostles and others. But certainly not a physical body that has great limitations, e.g., cannot see behind His head.

Those raised incorruptible will have Christ like spiritual bodies that may 'appear' as a man.

1. Luk 2:13  And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,

We know there are angels, perhaps millions of them. Don't they somehow 'see' or recognize each other? George: Angels do see each other, and Angels have 'Spiritual Bodies'.

2. Joh 14:9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Jesus has seen His Father and if we've seen Him we've seen the Father. Certainly Jesus was not talking about his physical body. George: I agree that Jesus has seen His Father; and Jesus now has a Spiritual Body. Are you saying that when Philip saw Jesus as a Natural man, Philip had also seen The Father (because Jesus is 'The Image and Representative and spokesman of His Father)?

3. 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Changed from what to what? From this physical body into something different. George - Changed into New Spiritual Bodies like that of Jesus Christ.

4. Exo 33:20  And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

This is not the body of an earthly man. George: Agreed.

5. 1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Just a little like Him or a lot like Him? But for sure something greater than a fleshly, earthly man. George: Agreed - A LOT like Him - and greater than a  fleshly Earthly man.

I suggest it is a spiritual body that 'appears' as a man as shown to the Apostles and others. But certainly not a physical body that has great limitations, e.g., cannot see behind His head.
George: Agreed.
Those raised incorruptible will have Christ like spiritual bodies that may 'appear' as a man. George: Agreed.
[/quote]

I now, do not see what you see Dennis, as I am in agreement with all of your statements above - yet Jesus is now still a 'Man with a Spiritual Body'; and 'Our Heavenly Father' has never been referred to as a 'Man' albeit His Elect will see 'Our Heavenly Father' when they see 'Jesus'.

Have I missed something Dennis?

Warmest Regards.

George


 

[Dennis Vogel]

We know there are angels, perhaps millions of them. Don't they somehow 'see' or recognize each other? George: Angels do see each other, and Angels have 'Spiritual Bodies'.

I quoted the word 'see' and used the word recognize for a reason George. Angels do not see with physical eyes.

Jesus has seen His Father and if we've seen Him we've seen the Father. Certainly Jesus was not talking about his physical body. George: I agree that Jesus has seen His Father; and Jesus now has a Spiritual Body. Are you saying that when Philip saw Jesus as a Natural man, Philip had also seen The Father (because Jesus is 'The Image and Representative and spokesman of His Father)?

The word 'image' does not have to mean, and many times does not mean physical image.

The words "one like", "appearance of", "like a", and "type of" are used in conjunction with 'man' for a reason. They have obvious meanings.

Heb 13:2  Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Angels can 'appear' as men. That does not mean they are men.

We are not yet in the 'image' of God. We are in the process of being made in the 'image' of God.

[cheekie3]

Dennis, once again, Wow - I will try and respond to your points below:

We know there are angels, perhaps millions of them. Don't they somehow 'see' or recognize each other? George: Angels do see each other, and Angels have 'Spiritual Bodies'.

I quoted the word 'see' and used the word recognize for a reason George. Angels do not see with physical eyes.

Jesus has seen His Father and if we've seen Him we've seen the Father. Certainly Jesus was not talking about his physical body. George: I agree that Jesus has seen His Father; and Jesus now has a Spiritual Body. Are you saying that when Philip saw Jesus as a Natural man, Philip had also seen The Father (because Jesus is 'The Image and Representative and spokesman of His Father)?

The word 'image' does not have to mean, and many times does not mean physical image.

The words "one like", "appearance of", "like a", and "type of" are used in conjunction with 'man' for a reason. They have obvious meanings.

Heb 13:2  Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Angels can 'appear' as men. That does not mean they are men.

We are not yet in the 'image' of God. We are in the process of being made in the 'image' of God.

A. I quoted the word 'see' and used the word recognize for a reason George. Angels do not see with physical eyes. George: Are you saying that Angels see with their minds or some other way? Does The Resurrected Jesus not have a Spiritual Body with two eyes? Will His Elect not have a Spiritual Body with two eyes?

B. The word 'image' does not have to mean, and many times does not mean physical image. George: Agreed - I know that 'image' does not always been a 'physical image'.

C. The words "one like", "appearance of", "like a", and "type of" are used in conjunction with 'man' for a reason. They have obvious meanings. George: Agreed - but Jesus is still referred in some New Testament Scriptures as a 'Man' and not 'like a Man'.

D: Heb 13:2  Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Angels can 'appear' as men. That does not mean they are men. George: Agreed.

E: We are not yet in the 'image' of God. We are in the process of being made in the 'image' of God. George: Agreed.

Warmest Regards.

George

[Dennis Vogel]

No George - Jesus does not need two physical eyes to see or even two spiritual eyes to see. Do you think He cannot now see through walls, etc? Eyes like ours cannot see through walls, etc. Do you think His eyes register on a physical brain?

He is our advocate and pleads our case before the Father.

If there are a million people praying to Him does He need a million ears to hear? Of course not. Nor does He need a million eyes to see.

The words "one like", "appearance of", "like a", and "type of" are used in conjunction with 'man' for a reason. They have obvious meanings.

You cannot just ignore these words. They add meaning.

[cheekie3]

Dennis -

Thank you for pointing these things out:

No George - Jesus does not need two physical eyes to see or even two spiritual eyes to see. Do you think He cannot now see through walls, etc? Eyes like ours cannot see through walls, etc. Do you think His eyes register on a physical brain?

He is our advocate and pleads our case before the Father.

If there are a million people praying to Him does He need a million ears to hear? Of course not. Nor does He need a million eyes to see.

The words "one like", "appearance of", "like a", and "type of" are used in conjunction with 'man' for a reason. They have obvious meanings.

You cannot just ignore these words. They add meaning.

I will seek His Face furthermore on this subject - and await His Revelation to me.

Warmest Regards.

George

[mikeincanada]

Jesus declared that all authority in heaven and earth was given to Him by God.
1. When did that happen?
2. Of which heaven was He speaking? The universe?

It would seem from the scripture you referenced that Christ received all power in heaven and earth at that time, when he was resurrected.

(Mat 28:18)  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

As the son of Man, I believe He had "emptied" Himself of His previous glory. 

(Php 2:6)  Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,

(Php 2:7)  nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,


The heavens, refer to authority over the heavenly spiritual forces that we wrestle with.

(Eph 6:12)  for it is not ours to wrestle with blood and flesh, but with the sovereignties, with the authorities, with the world-mights of this darkness, with the spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials." ( heavens)

[Colin]

Dear forum members

Ray addressed many of the points which have been raised in this thread ; the audio of the
2007 Nashville Conference:  (audio 6) 'THE UNIVERSE!' http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nashville07_6.mp3 is one which will shed light on many of the uncertainties which people have been contemplating.

I was "led" to listen to them by randomly selecting a copy I had made onto a cassette and was pleasantly surprised to hear Ray speaking on this very topic.
May I suggest that you take time to have a listen.
There are transcripts also available, for which I am sure Dave can supply details.

Another is  (audio 7A) 'WHO IS THE FATHER?'  http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nashville07_7A.mp3
Some might not be aware of points made clear by Ray in this conference, many years ago, and will find them illuminating and helpful in refreshing what had “faded” for me.        Colin