Picking and Choosing

[NoSin]

Sorry for my first post to be one of frustration, but I'm so sick of "Christians" that I know treating the Bible as if it was OPTIONAL reading material... I really don't mean to rant, so I will just get to my question. I keep finding myself in discussions with people who believe "selectively". What I mean is they believe in Heaven, but not in Hell, or they will admit Christ died for our SINS, but they say it's okay NOT to believe in Him... I don't know how to handle theses people, and the fact that they call themselves Born Again, really drives me crazy. How do you all deal with these folks? How can I explain to them God requires certain things from us, and that you can't just pick and choose the "good stuff" that you want to believe!?

Thank you for your advice.

[angie]

Hi NoSin,

First off 'Welcome' to the Forum. I think you will find that most people believe 'selectively' to use your terminology. Others might see that as 'discernment' Everyone who is on a personal walk with God is at different stages in their growth and development with regard to spiritual maturity. Some are blind to the truths of scripture [God's word] Some can see some things but not others. Yet others have matured a lot. I personally am at the stage where, although I do not understand or know everything, I believe I am on the right path.

The scriptures can be heavyweight reading material if God has not granted you 'the eyes to see' and sometimes people need a little help. Pray and ask for it. If it's God's will that you know at this time, He will grant you spiritual sight. The reason people can say it's alright not to believe in Him, is because it means He is not calling them to Him AT THIS MOMENT,[but He Will]

It is All of God, He decides who will be called and when. He decides how much will be revealed at any given time to any given individual. It is all working according to His plan. Others cannot help but comply with the state of mind/place on the learning curve that God has given them, neither can we. That's why we shouldn't get frustrated at where other people are on the curve, it's not so long ago we were there also. We really must just accept that God is working out EVERYTHING according to his will in every last one of us. We can discuss and debate different things with people all day long, but if they haven't YET been granted 'ears to hear and 'eyes to see' they won't understand, so stop discussing the same point after a few times of explanations/showing them the relevant scriptures, and move on to something else. I'm sure you've heard all the sayings about 'flogging a dead horse' take a horse to water, but can't make it drink' etc. Don't do it, just accept how it is for them at this time and you'll find the frustrations cease. [anybody know why horses are always used in these analogies? ]

Hope this helps you for the moment

Angie

[orion77]

Hello NoSin, and welcome to the forum.

When we are no longer of the world, those in the world do not want to buy what we are selling, spiritually speaking of course.  The carnal mind cannot understand the spiritual things of God.

Bobby, I like this verse you quoted:

(1Ti 6:5)  meddling, of men whose mind has been corrupted and deprived of the truth, supposing gain to be godliness. Withdraw from such persons.

Nowadays so many are preaching prosperity, the kingdom of God is not of this worlds cares or desires. 


Angie, good point, we are all progressing along at different points.  Patience is a hard thing to learn, at least it has been for me,   .

God bless,

Gary

[angie]

Gary,

you are not alone mate, seen the day where If I couldn't get what I wanted 'yesterday' I could have a right little hissy fit to myself about it. Had to learn patience in the end. [if only to stop falling over my bottom lip!  ] LOL

Angie

[NoSin]

Thank you all for the warm greetings and words of advice... and Bobby thank you for the Scripture...

The weird part about this problem (sorry angie, it's still a bit of a "problem" for me, if that's the right word)... is that no matter how much you quote the Bible, these people just seem to make up their own beliefs, do you all know what i am talking about? Maybe you all don't have similar experiences?

I have read so much about "inclusinvess" and all that other politically-correct stuff (and from people who claim to be Christian!) that i just can't understand what they mean anymore! God gave us ONE PATH to Salvation, through His Son, not though Buddha or Mohammed or whatever... I guess I'm just curious to know how you actually speak to these folks, without just "flogging the horse"!

[angie]

Hiya NoSin,

No apology required mate.

Yes, I had a problem talking to people who believe something different. I just told them what I believed, showed them why I believed it [scripture] [ oh an I had a week to prepare! lol] and left it at that I don't try to understand what they mean unless it's a question, I already understand they are deceived, though I will listen...once. Despite all that, I accept everyone as having a right to be here and as just another [lost sheep] human being,[as I was] 'warts an all' so to speak, since there but for the grace of God go I. I don't do the 'flogging horses' bit. It saps your energy.

Angie

[hillsbororiver]

Luk 8:10  And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see and hearing they might not understand.

Rom 11:8  (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 

[hillsbororiver]

Here is truth # 2 from the 12 God Given Truths to Understanding His Word;



TRUTH NUMBER 2

[A] "All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES; and without a parable spoke He not unto them" (Matt. 13:34).

"But without a PARABLE spoke He not unto them..." (Mark 4:34).

[C] "This PARABLE spoke Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which He spoke unto them" (John 10:6).

Jesus taught in parables only, and no one understood His parables, hence Jesus taught in a way that He knew no one would understand His message. This truth of Scripture is so revolutionary to the minds of most Christians that many will think it blasphemy, and yet the Scriptures abound with statements that fully support it.

I heard Matt Croach (elder son of TBN President, Paul Croach) state on international television that Jesus spoke in parables to make the meaning of His teachings simple and clear and understandable to the simple farmers and uneducated people of Judea. My Wycliffe Bible Dictionary has a similar explanation: "Purpose of parables. The obvious purpose of Jesus' use of parables was to make spiritual truth clear and compelling." What a crock.

Is anyone interested in what Jesus Himself had to say about His use of Parables? Good. Here it is:

"And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why do you speak unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but unto them it is not given" (Matt. 13:10-11).

Now then, does anyone see any similarity between "to make spiritual truth clear and compelling," and "...but unto them it is not given?" No? Neither do I. What I see is a diametric opposite. What I see is a flat out contradiction between Christian teachers and the Word of God.

"Jesus spoke in parables to make His quaint little stories clear and understandable to the uneducated farmers of Judea," my foot: "and when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard His parables, they perceived that He spoke of them" (Matt. 21:45). The Chief Priests and Pharisees were generally highly educated people. But even they didn't know what Jesus' parables really meant, but they on one occasion at least, "perceived" that Jesus was speaking about them.

So surely, if Jesus' parables were "clear and compelling" to the uneducated farmers of Judea, then they would be even more so to His own disciples, not?

"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and His disciples came unto Him, saying, Declare [expound, define, explain] unto us the parable of the tares of the field" (Matt. 13:36).

Even Jesus' Own disciples had to have these parables explained to them. And just how did Jesus "declare" these parables to His Own disciples? You wouldn't believe me if I told you. You wouldn't believe me if I showed you. Okay, here's how Jesus explained His parable. He explained His parable to His disciples by telling them ANOTHER PARABLE! I told you that you wouldn't believe me. More on this later.

This is another one of those marvelous spiritual truths of Scripture, which you will never hear explained in the Church. Just what do they teach all these future clergymen in seminary? The fact is, Jesus did not want the people to understand Him and Jesus did not want them to repent and Jesus did not want to spiritually heal or save them. He clearly said so. But why? Because God has a plan that involves calling MANY, but chosen out only a FEW.

"For whosoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever has not, from him shall be taken away even that he has" (Matt. 13:12).

Does anyone understand what Jesus just said here? Probably not too many, for this too, is a parable explaining a parable—and no one understood either. I wish they would let me teach a few classes at seminary.

"Therefore speak I to them in parables, because they seeing, see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah... for this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should BE CONVERTED, AND I SHOULD HEAL [SAVE] THEM" (Verses 13-15).

Wow! Jesus didn't want them to understand and He didn't want to convert them and He didn't want to save them. How could Isaiah's prophecy be true if Jesus were to contradict it by teaching them plainly so that they could understand and repent? Now, that's what Jesus said, and that's what Isaiah said, but there's a problem:

"But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah said, Lord, who has believed our report?" (Rom. 10:16).

Yes, who? Have you believed this report I have just given you? It is almost frightening how few truly believe God's Scriptural reports. Hence, precious few believe and understand the Scriptures, and fewer yet, obey them.

There is good news, however, concerning the Parables, which virtually no one understands, and it is this:

"And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable. And He said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables." (Mark 4:10-11).

I have never met a Christian in my life that believes this verse. Not one. They all have told me that Jesus spoke many times, in fact most of the time, in plain language to the multitudes and the people, and not in parables only.

Hey, I'm glad that it is they who are contradicting Jesus and not I. Add to this denial the heresy that anyone can at any time, accept Jesus and believe, and then be saved. Jesus says they can't; the Church says regardless of what Jesus says, they can. Who ya gonna believe?

Continuing:

"That seeing they may see, and not perceive: and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted and their sins should be forgiven them. And He said unto them. Know ye not this parable? And how then will you know all parables?" (Verse 12-13).

Say, did you get that? If you would know but one parable, you would know all parables! This is because all parables are speaking of the same subject, just presented from different perspectives. Wouldn't you just love to know just one parable so that you could know all parables?

What is so utterly amazing is that not only does the Church not understand all of the parables of Jesus, but, they do not even understand the parables which Jesus explained. I assure you that I am as serious as I could ever be when I say that. In a future paper I will explain what all the parables mean. But for now, just understand, that Jesus' entire ministry was preached in such a way that no one would understand Him, except to those very few to whom it was later (much later—see Truth Number 3) given to understand. Pray that God will grant you spiritual understanding of His parables, or you too, will "...understand not."

You can read the entire article here;


http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm

Joe

[ned]

Hi NoSin and welcome.
When my blind eyes were first opened to God's truth (Praise His Name!) I was sooo excited I had to share with a friend from church. Now, she was a "die-hard" christian for over 10 years and up until this point we had shared many excellent conversations about God. When I told her "the truth" according to scripture, she decided Satan had gotten hold of me, and once I "got over" this particular tribulation, God would use me in a good way.

She decided we should meet weekly to discuss. I tried to prepare for our meetings by writing down notes and such, but after the first meeting or two, I handed the situation over to God. I did not prep myself in the least. Each meeting, the conversation was taken over by HER, and she boldly informed me, using scripture that she could carnally understand, that we will go to hell if we don't "accept" Jesus, etc, etc....blah, blah, blah (you know the rest).

Now she strived, she went on and on, and wouldn't let me get a word in edgewise. I couldn't really understand why I just sat there and listened, (I did give her my input when I could get a word in) but I realize now that no matter what I said, she wouldn't have heard me, God had not yet chosen her to hear the truth.  Then I was assured by these verses:

2Tim2:14 "Of these things put them in rememberance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers."
2Tim2:24 "And the servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient.."

To say the least, our meetings ceased after just a few, and we haven't really spoke since. All is of God.
Sure, I've lost a friend, but I've gained the truth.

For Him we remain Faithful!
Marie

[NoSin]

Hi Hilsbororiver, and thanks...

I do have a question though. You say that Jesus speaks only in parables, however he does EXPLAIN the parables (what I mean to say is that an explanaition of a parable is NOT a parable, is it?) In Matthew 13:36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field." He answered,...

In fact you make this point yourself when you say, "they do not even understand the parables which Jesus explained." So it seems to me that you are saying that some things Jesus says are explainations, not just parables... is this not true?

[hillsbororiver]

Hello NoSin,

Notice that the Lord explains the parables only to His chosen, the disciples, and now the elect.

Please read this article as well, it is very enlightening;

http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html

His Peace to you,

Joe