The Church / Gods Church

[lareli]

I may have incorrectly recalled it being taught here that "the church" is made up of those called, and that "Gods Church" is made up of those called and chosen..

Ray however said in the Towers paper..

  And lest we get puffed up in the realization that the Christian democracies of America and Europe are indeed the "ISRAEL OF GOD" in prophecy, let us not forget that God's Church is made up of the "MANY called, but FEW chosen" (Matt. 22:14 & Matt. 7:21-23)

Am I understanding Ray correctly here, that the United States and (Christian Democracies of) Europe are "Gods Church" in prophecy? Is there a difference in being the "Church of God" in prophecy vs being the "Church of God" in some other aspect?

If the United States and Europe are Gods Church than who is "The" Church?

How can the worldly kingdoms of America and Europe be Gods Church if Christ said His Kingdom was "not of this world"?

[Porter]

America and Europe are the "ISRAEL OF GOD" and Ray was right to put it in quotes. Here is another quote from Ray (from the 'You Fools' paper) as to what he thought about the "ISRAEL OF GOD" according to Scripture.

https://bible-truths.com/fools.htm

Today's Church threatens the world of sinners with eternal torture in eternal fire if they do not "COME INTO their Great Mystery Church of Abominations."
World evangelism is presently:

...compassing sea and land to make proselytes, and when they have made them, they make them twofold more the children of hell than themselves."

  They who teach "eternal torture in fire" will find THEMSELVES in the very fires they threaten on others:

  "Son of man, the house of Israel ['the ISRAEL OF GOD'Gal. 6:16 The Church, which has turned unto 'another gospel'—Gal. 1:6] is to Me become DROSS: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace they are even the dross of silver.
--------------------

I guess you could say America and Europe (the "ISRAEL OF GOD") are part of the many called, but that the true spiritual "Israel of God" are the called AND chosen. Collectively both the called and chosen are part of God's church. At least that is how I understand it, but I'm always open to correction.

Ray explains who the true Jew is (circumcised in spirit) and those who say they are Jews (but are not) quite nicely throughout parts of that Towers paper.

[Porter]

Sorry for the double post, but I thought this would help.

Here is where I got the idea that both the called and chosen are collectively God's church.

https://bible-truths.com/lake13.html

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND
ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH"
(Rev. 17:1-5).

And now for one of the most amazing Truths in all Revelation:

  "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her [Mystery Babylon the Great], MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" (Rev. 18:4).
 

GOD CALLS HIS PEOPLE OUT OF THE VERY CHURCH THAT HE CALLED THEM INTO!

"Many are called but few are chosen" (Matt. 22:14).

  Few realize that there is a "church WITHIN the church." When God chooses us FROM AMONG the called, we become separate from their doctrines and sins. We are still "The Church of the Living God," but we are a peculiar people that no longer follows the traditions of men, which the many called who are building the house upon the sand continue to follow.

---------------------------------
Christ's Kingdom is not of this world because His Kingdom is a spiritual Kingdom in a spiritual realm. His church which makes up both the called and chosen are here on earth. Christ's church (the chosen) can be here on earth and in the spiritual realm of Heaven at the same time.  Another quote from Ray where he expounds on this idea from the same paper I linked.

SEA, EARTH, AND HEAVEN

There are three realms spoken of in Revelation: sea, earth, and heaven:

  "And the angel which I saw stand upon the SEA and upon the EARTH lifted up his hand to HEAVEN, and swore by Him that lives for ever and ever, [for the eons of the eons], who created HEAVEN, and the things that therein are, and the EARTH, and the things that therein are, and the SEA, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer [no longer a time of delay]" (Rev. 10:5-6).

  The angels [messengers] of God communicate things from heaven to both the earth and the sea: "And the voice which I heard from heaven spoke unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the ANGEL which stands upon the sea and upon the earth" (Rev. 10: .

  There are three realms of humanity and three realms of spiritual understanding. The lowest of all is the sea. Those with at least some spiritual understanding are those who dwell in the earth. And those who have the very mind of Christ are those who dwell in heaven. ALL REALMS will give honor and glory to God:

[StevenL]

I once tried to find the actual origin of the Bible word 'church' using Strong's, several translations, and of course internet search. What I found was a confusing labyrinth of differing notions about the word with no real conclusion that one could settle upon as a good reason to translate ecclesia (or however you want to spell it) as 'church'. I found this astonishing since the Greek word has a simple, straightforward, provable meaning, i.e., a group called out for a special purpose. How easy would it have been to just translate the word into it's common meaning, 'called out'? But it would not have suited the purpose of the 'church'? Same as the real translation of aionios (with different forms) and sheol. hades, gehenna, tartarus would not have been beneficial to real intent of the 'church'. For me, 'the church' is just another fairly easily discernible deception of the Enemy.

Also, I was recently slapped up side the head with the reality that within even the true called-out assembly, only a few (elect) were actually 'overcomers' and would partake of the promises given to the overcomers in the letters to the messengers of the called-out assemblies in Asia. Revelation 2-3. The rest of the people in the 'churches'/ecclesias are obviously NOT overcomers and will not inherit the kingdom and rulership or aionion life. Made me swallow pretty hard. Am I worthy of the kingdom? Have I really been obedient to the Master? To be quite honest, if I were judging me, I'd likely not be one of the elect, at least up until this point. But I now better understand Jesus' and the apostles' continuous call for the diligence and striving of the 'saints'/set apart ones for the prize.

In any case, I, God willing, will not again be hoodwinked by 'the church'. At least not fully deceived, since I'm sure I've still got some vestiges of the false notions in me that were planted there. The delusion is very powerful.

This is just MY personal experience and I don't try to force it on anybody. If one wants to use the word church to describe the ecclesia, makes no difference to me as long as he or she knows what it is truly representing. I just prefer truthful and intelligent use of words. And... I find it outrageous that an entity claiming to be the witness for the Messiah on the earth is representing Him as an Eternal Torturer and is collecting 'tithes' from the 'tribes' to do so. No wonder John was amazed when he saw Her.

Sorry, just got up for the day with two cups of coffee. Zing! Hope everybody has a great day. One day closer!

[lareli]

StevenL

Very helpful to use the words "called out" instead of "church" I agree. Just because of everything man has made that word "church" to mean. I appreciate your thoughts.

[lareli]

Porter when you said this..

  Christ's Kingdom is not of this world because His Kingdom is a spiritual Kingdom in a spiritual realm. His church which makes up both the called and chosen are here on earth. Christ's church (the chosen) can be here on earth and in the spiritual realm of Heaven at the same time.  Another quote from Ray where he expounds on this idea from the same paper I linked.   

It reminded me of a "new" doctrine that I had noticed making its way through some churches over the last few years. I've heard a radio preacher (maybe Joel Osteen) as well as I'd seen Facebook posts from pastors talking about how we as believers have 'dual-citizenship'. This doctrine, I suppose, is meant to give 'believers' a conviction towards civil duties such as being obligated to vote and such.

That was not what you were saying, I know. It just reminded me of it.

I am going to re-read the "you fools/hypocrites" paper as it was the first one of Rays papers that I'd read when I found this site. I don't remember much of it.

Thank you for your insight brother.

[John from Kentucky]

Ray discusses the church in Part 8 of his Lake of Fire Series of articles.

[lareli]

Part 8 of LOF, ok.

When/how do you guys find time to read all this?

With a full time job plus 3 hours drive time a day.. a wife, 3 kids and 2 dogs.. it's just so much easier for me to come on this forum and ask questions than it is to spend what would amount to "weeks" trying to get through one of Rays papers. But I do find that the less time I spend posting on here and the more time I spend reading one of the papers, even just a half hour here and there, I get more out of it.

[indianabob]

Hi Largeli,

Yes we do get "more" out of reading slowly, carefully.
That's because Ray Smith took so much time examining his own writing in detail with the needs of the reader in mind.
His articles are as valuable as they are because of the diligence and love that went into the preparation of them and
allowing or having God's spirit to lead. It is all of God.

Indiana Bob

[Dennis Vogel]

Part 8 of LOF, ok.

When/how do you guys find time to read all this?

With a full time job plus 3 hours drive time a day.. a wife, 3 kids and 2 dogs.. it's just so much easier for me to come on this forum and ask questions than it is to spend what would amount to "weeks" trying to get through one of Rays papers. But I do find that the less time I spend posting on here and the more time I spend reading one of the papers, even just a half hour here and there, I get more out of it.

There are audio's and videos available that many find useful.

[StevenL]

I've found that some of this stuff of Mr. Smith's is simple yet very complicated and you have to read it several times to start getting it. It's easy to miss the finer points when trying to recite it back to somebody or tell others what he said and meant. And if you haven't taken time to really digest the words, you're probably telling it wrong anyway. I doubt seriously whether I could pass it on perfectly at this point.

Oh, and I have time to read it all because I retired 7/15/16 and this is what I've spent my time on so far. This and reading through the Concordant Literal Gen to Rev. A few more chapters and I'm done. Then I can go back to work so I won't starve to death.   

[Musterseed]

Largeli,
How do you do it? I can't imagine doing this with managing a family too.
Jesus moved me 4000 kilometres away from my children and grandchildren, first time apart
ever. People still ask me why I moved here, we knew no one in NS. I would say" Divine Intervention " not even knowing it was. He placed us in The Annapolis Valley, I call it the valley of Christians, mostly all Baptists here. God willing, we are wanting to move closer to the grandchildren, they , twins, will be four next week. We would like to spend time with them before they turn into nasty tweenies. All in the Lords hands, He will do what is best for us.

I was wondering about the Christian Faith ,it seems to me, they struggle so hard, I feel empathy
For them because they are so fearful. I know it must be, for the Masters Plan but it is still sad 😭.
Oh, Gods Church, Ray referred to it as the little unknown church, Body of Christ, Church of the Living God. That's us........ and that's all I know...Wohooooooo!

[lareli]

Musterseed I just googled The Annapolis Valley... from the google images it looks like an awesome place the Lord has brought you to.

God Bless

[Musterseed]

Hi Largeli
Yes , the Annapolis Valley is indeed beautiful, it's like living inside a picture. Now google Rocky Harbour
Gross Morne in Newfoundland, and Corner Brook ,that's where I grew up. It is Majestic. Where are you from?      🙏🏼     Pamela