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[Porter]

After re-reading parts of Ray's lake of fire series, I think I understand what spiritual death means now, including how it relates to the first and second death, but especially the first death. I was racking my brain for the past few days trying to figure out what exactly the first death is. Then I found it from one of Ray's lake of fire papers linked below. 

 https://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm                                                                                 

WHEN DO GOD'S ELECT DIE ONCE BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH?

 But how do the Elect "die once but after this Judgment?" It rather seems that they would receive Judgment [in this life], and then after this [judgment] they would once die. No, the sequence is the same for the Elect as it is for the wicked: "And it is appointed unto men [including the Elect] once to die, but after this [after this necessary 'once to die' declaration, then follows...], Judgment" (Heb. 9:27). And what did we learn Judgment is? Why, THE SECOND DEATH. There can only be a "second" death if it is first preceded by another death.

Now for the second part of the Heb. 9:27 riddle: When and how do God's Elect die "ONCE" before their SECOND death Judgment? Some of you should already be ahead of me with all the hints I have given you, but for the rest who haven't figured it out yet, you will maybe feel a little embarrassed when you see the answer, so here it is:

"Know ye not [no, of course the majority of Christendom 'knows not,' and that is why the physical aspects of baptism is so important to them...] ...know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into DEATH" (Rom. 6:3-4).

There is the answer to how God's Elect must "once die" before their "Second death Judgment." The carnal world dies when they breathe their last and go down into the grave. God's Elect die when they are "baptized into death.". After resurrection from the dead, the world will enter into Judgment. And what about us--God's Elect? When do we enter into Judgment? Same way, when we are resurrected from the dead through baptism.
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What I do not understand is how this first death relates to the following verses.

Rom 6:22  But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 
1Co 15:21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 
1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The reason I do not understand this is because of a comment Ray made from another paper I found as I was researching all this.

 https://bible-truths.com/lake4.html

May God finally grant you to SEE SOMETHING SPIRITUAL! Parables are NOT literal, that’s why they are called "parables" instead of "history." This parable pictures the carnal mind going the way of the flesh. What are the wages of living a riotous life in the alien land of lustful Babylon? Is it "life and joy in the holy spirit?" I speak as fool. Here is the wages of riotous and carnal living in the hog pens of Babylon: "For the wages of sin is DEATH..." (Rom. 6:23). SPIRITUAL DEATH! What must happen AFTER we spiritually DIE? "JUDGMENT!" The spiritual DEAD must be JUDGED. Does judging CORRECT the spiritually dead sinners? Yes it does. That is what the parable of the Prodigal Son is all about. God’s "ways and means" ALWAYS WORK!
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I've always thought of this death (Rom. 6:23) as a literal one. How is being "baptized into death" the same spiritual first death as "for the wages of sin is death"? Also, Am I correct in my understanding that the first death is a spiritual one just like the second death? 

I guess the reason I bring this up is because it would seem to be an important thing to know, at least for me, seeing how I've never fully understood this particular subject. It seems it would be good to know the steps God causes the Elect to follow along with the process and the experiences associated with that. 

Jesus saves the Elect and the world in what seems like the exact same way, but just at different times. Just like Jesus was crucified, died, buried and then resurrected, the Elect in this age and the rest of the world in the next age also follows the same exact steps, with the addition of being judged as the last step. Am I getting this right?

[Porter]

In case anyone is interested, I found this explanation from Kat, and it's the best one so far for explaining what Ray was talking about. I've underlined the most pertinent part from Kat's post, the one to which I was inquiring about.


https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php?topic=7307.0


Hi Barbara,

Yes this is confusing when you are trying to understand the Scriptural terms and how they apply to us now. I'll just continue to bring up parts of Ray's article, if I can, to explain these different aspects.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm ---------------------------

"And as it is appointed unto men [Gk: 'anthropose'--human, mankind] once to die, but after this the judgment"

Now get ready for a real revelation. There are two mysteries in Heb. 9:27 when applied to God's Elect:

what and when is the "ONCE to die?"

what and when is the "after this JUDGMENT?"

We will take up the Elect's Judgment part of this verse first.

We learned that Gehenna fire, and unquenchable fire, and eonian fire, and the furnace of fire, and being salted with fire, and the lake of fire, are all the same fire, and this fire is JUDGMENT. Now then, since the lake of fire is judgment, and the lake of fire "is" also the second death, if follows that the second death also "is" judgment. THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGMENT, AND JUDGMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH.

Had God wanted to make things easy, He could have inspirited Heb. 9:27 to read like this: "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the SECOND death."

For that is what the second death is, JUDGMENT. Likewise then, Judgment is the SECOND death. After the ONCE to die comes the SECOND to die. Or: After the FIRST death comes the SECOND death. Simple enough when God gives us eyes to see. But there is still an enigma about this verse that we will cover a little later.

 GOD'S ELECT MUST DIE THE SECOND DEATH THROUGH JUDGMENT
v
The second death is not a literal death of the physical body--neither for the Elect nor the Wicked. It is a death of the carnal mind, the heart of sin, the nature of sin. Our literal, physical flesh and blood does not die a second time. But all character flaws associated with sin must die: All believing Elect Saints of God must DIE TO THE FLESH OF THE CARNAL MIND. Death is the daily life of the Believer!

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross DAILY, and follow me" (Luke 9:23).
---------------------------------------------------------

So it's called the "second death" because it is the death of the carnal beast within us, usually after physical death for the world. But this is not something that happens all at once, it's a process, it's judgment through chastisement, purging and correction. For the elect it's now, as we live this life and for the rest of mankind in the LOF after the great white throne judgment at Christ's return.

Now all of mankind are born spiritually dead, until God opens their eyes, but this is not the first death. "It is appointed unto men once to die," this is the first death and it's physical death of the body for all of mankind, the many, but not the elect.

So the elect must also go through a symbolic "once to die" before judgment and that is represented in baptism. The water pictures going down into the grave and burying our old self and coming up out of the water represents resurrection to a new life in Christ. Then the elect go through the "second death" during this life, being judged and dying to self, "dying daily." The elect will also go on to a physical death.

1Peter 4:17  For the time has come for judgment (second death) to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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So it seems I may be confusing the state we are in when we are born (spiritually dead) with our first death in Christ through spiritual baptism. However, it does seem like Ray believed that "the wages of sin is death" and being "baptized into (Christ's) death" is the first spiritual death. I'm not saying he is right or wrong, I'm just having a hard time making the connection.


Anyway I'll pray about it and continue searching for an answer. It's not that big of a deal really as I was mainly looking for an hopeful "sign" that maybe I've experienced this first spiritual death.

[Dave in Tenn]

Anyway I'll pray about it and continue searching for an answer. It's not that big of a deal really as I was mainly looking for an hopeful "sign" that maybe I've experienced this first spiritual death.

There are lots of "hopeful signs" in Scripture.  The paramount one is to believe on the name of the Son of God.  His name means The Lord Is Salvation.  Whatever faults and failings you and I may have, we believe on His name and more-so than the many who call on it.  Along with this, we understand that all is of a sovereign God.  We bring nothing that He hasn't provided for us.  Even if we retain some "lusts" and bad habits, and can't be said to have "died" to all of that, we HAVE died to any hope beyond His work and choice in the matter, including our carnal religious pasts.

All of the parables of Christ related to the Kingdom may also be "hopeful" signs.  I guess that depends mostly on what you are "hoping for".  I haven't found this walk so far to be much like I imagined "following Him" to be back when I was a much younger person.

Here's one, though they all tackle the same subject in different ways.

Mat 21:45  And hearing His parables, the chief priests and the Pharisees knew that He was speaking about them.
Mat 21:46  And seeking to lay hold of Him, they feared the crowds, because they held Him as a prophet.
Mat 22:1  And answering, Jesus again spoke to them in parables, saying:
Mat 22:2  The kingdom of Heaven is compared to a man, a king, who made a wedding feast for his son.
Mat 22:3  And he sent his slaves to call those being invited to the wedding feast, but they did not desire to come.
Mat 22:4  Again, he sent other slaves, saying, Tell the ones invited, Behold, I have prepared my supper; my oxen, and the fatlings are killed, and all things ready; come to the wedding feast.
Mat 22:5  But not caring they went away, one to his own field, and one to his trading.
Mat 22:6  And the rest, seizing his slaves, insulted and killed them.
Mat 22:7  And hearing, the king became angry. And sending his armies, he destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
Mat 22:8  Then he said to his slaves, Indeed, the wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy.
Mat 22:9  Then go onto the exits of the highways and call to the wedding feast as many as you may find.
Mat 22:10  And going out into the highways, those slaves gathered all, as many as they found, both evil and good. And the wedding feast was filled with reclining guests.
Mat 22:11  And the king coming in to look over those reclining, he saw a man there not having been dressed in a wedding garment.
Mat 22:12  And he said to him, Friend, how did you come in here, not having a wedding garment? But he was speechless.
Mat 22:13  Then the king said to the servants, Binding his feet and hands, take him away and throw him out into the outer darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of the teeth.
Mat 22:14  For many are called, but few chosen.

I'd ask you...where in that parable are YOU now?  What "character" in the story is closest to your life at present? 
 

[Porter]

There are lots of "hopeful signs" in Scripture.  The paramount one is to believe on the name of the Son of God.  His name means The Lord Is Salvation.  Whatever faults and failings you and I may have, we believe on His name and more-so than the many who call on it.  Along with this, we understand that all is of a sovereign God.  We bring nothing that He hasn't provided for us.  Even if we retain some "lusts" and bad habits, and can't be said to have "died" to all of that, we HAVE died to any hope beyond His work and choice in the matter, including our carnal religious pasts.

I've been thinking a lot lately about some of the points you've made here, and I must admit that trusting God completely is proving to be one of the hardest things I've ever attempted to do. Yet I feel as if I don't have much of a choice. Hope in self isn't working, God has proved this to me so many times. I don't trust myself much anymore. So thankful for His patience.

I'd ask you...where in that parable are YOU now?  What "character" in the story is closest to your life at present?

I'll let you know when God lets me know, but I do know which one I HOPE to be, the one that God knew I would be. What a high calling, too high maybe as Ray would say. Sometimes it's hard to believe, and sometimes I think He picked the wrong person to believe these things, but I know that is stupid talk.

[Dave in Tenn]

I've been thinking a lot lately about some of the points you've made here, and I must admit that trusting God completely is proving to be one of the hardest things I've ever attempted to do. Yet I feel as if I don't have much of a choice. Hope in self isn't working, God has proved this to me so many times. I don't trust myself much anymore. So thankful for His patience.

If that isn't "spiritual death" then I don't know what is.