I very rarely even bother to read the christian conversations in other forums. I did it for years, trying to get some fellowship and to gain some knowledge, but the huge majority of the talk is just confusion, arguments, 'hermeneutics', puffed up experts in Greek or Hebrew telling people what it 'really means', etc. But... tonight, just for an experiment, I entered a forum and read some conversations under their Theology sub-forum. Found the usual babel, I'm sure you all have seen it. However, this one person started a thread with what I've quoted below:
"Not all men are reconciled to God by Christ's death while being enemies, and thats simply because Christ's death was not for everyone without exception. Thats why some are reconciled to God while being enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10 and why some are under Gods wrath and condemnation while being enemies and unbelievers Jn 3:18,36 !
There is simply only one explanation for this, Christ died for some who are enemies and unbelievers and did not die for others who are enemies and unbelievers !
The enemies and unbelievers that Christ died for are reconciled to God by it, did not perform any conditions whatsoever, because they were actively enemies and unbelievers, So Christ fulfilled all the conditions necessary for them to be reconciled to God while being enemies and unbelievers!"
Summary, he contended that Jesus' death reconciled sinners, the ungodly, while they were still ungodly, without condition. But some of the enemies, the ungodly, remain under God's wrath and judgment. Therefore God did NOT die for all.
I'm sure this has been espoused before by some, but the reaction of the others to this was amazing. The bunch that I had been witnessing arguing the usual eternal damnation, free will, heaven and hell, immortal souls, blah, blah, you know, the usual babel of Christianity, all of a sudden began to pour forth the Scriptures PROVING that Jesus was the Savior of ALL, that He was the propitiation for ALL, stumbling all over them like blinded animals, but still just begrudgingly maintaining that, no matter the evidence, all will NOT be saved. I could tell it shook some of them, since they had been forced to attack the poster with PROOF of the reconciliation being provided to ALL, but were unable to admit the spiritual conclusion of the Scriptures they were using for the battle.
Were it not for the mistranslations of 'hell', 'eternal/everlasting/forever', along with the ghostly phantom of 'free will', they would have been forced to conclude the salvation of all. That 'free will' thing is a Monster. Ray said the KJV was a good translation with the exception of a few words like this. BUT THAT'S ALL IT TOOK to create the astonishing labyrinth of disagreement we see today among 'believers' or 'church'. A little leaven really has leavened the lump. It is really amazing to look at it after a time of getting into this stuff that Ray was so good at, just cutting to the quick, forcing you to look at the words and just ADMIT they mean what they say. When you absorb a lot of this and THEN go back out into babel and listen to them, their intelligence, their reasonings, their hermeneutics, just GLARE at you with its stupidity and contradiction. Wow! What an experience.
You know, I don't think Ray was perfect by any means, and there are a
few things I've run across in his writings for which I've reached some different conclusions upon intense examination, but just wrestling with his teachings and observing his 'logic' really does help you immensely in testing and evaluating what others are saying. Some things I read in that forum, I could almost hear Ray say 'ABSURD NONSENSE!', because that's what it is. And... "am I going to fast for anybody?"
There's a Gift of God here. Thank you Lord!
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Topic: Amazing forum conversation (Read 3907 times)