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Author Topic: " fill" darkness  (Read 1273 times)

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octoberose

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" fill" darkness
« on: April 13, 2017, 03:54:15 AM »

I read this and I don't know who this guy is or why I should believe him. What do you all think, since we use this verse a lot ?
 "  G. L. Bartholomew's translation of Isaiah 45:7 is illuminating indeed: "I form light and [hence] fill darkness. [Likewise], I make good and [hence] fill bad. I, YHWH, do all this." "
 Why would this be translated  " fill" instead of create ? Can anyone  make sense of this?
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cheekie3

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Re: " fill" darkness
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2017, 04:46:59 AM »

octoberose -

Regarding your concern:

I read this and I don't know who this guy is or why I should believe him. What do you all think, since we use this verse a lot ?
 "  G. L. Bartholomew's translation of Isaiah 45:7 is illuminating indeed: "I form light and [hence] fill darkness. [Likewise], I make good and [hence] fill bad. I, YHWH, do all this." "
 Why would this be translated  " fill" instead of create ? Can anyone  make sense of this?

Here is the YLV:

Isaiah 45:7 (Young's Literal Translation):

Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'

Is it not clear that He is the originator of light, darkness, peace and evil?

Is being the originator, not the same as being the Creator?

Here is a New Testament Scripture:

2 Corinthians 4:6 (KJV):

because [it is] God who said, Out of darkness light [is] to shine, who did shine in our hearts, for the enlightening of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.


Was the darkness not brought into being first, and then the light came from it?

Are we not all in darkness, until His marvelous Light shines on us and makes us see?

I know that Ray mentioned outer darkness a few times; which is stated in some of Jesus' Parables in The New Testament:

Matthew 8:12 (Young's Literal Translation):
but the sons of the reign shall be cast forth to the outer darkness -- there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.'

Matthew 22:13 (Young's Literal Translation):
`Then said the king to the ministrants, Having bound his feet and hands, take him up and cast forth to the outer darkness, there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth;

Matthew 25:30 (Young's Literal Translation):
and the unprofitable servant cast ye forth to the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.

Here is a link about outer darkness:

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,16071.msg144392.html#msg144392

I hope this puts this in some perspective for you.

Warmest Regards.

George.
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The Acts of The Apostles 1:8 (NIBEV) "But you shall receive power when His Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

Dave in Tenn

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Re: " fill" darkness
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2017, 05:49:15 PM »

From a bible-study perspective, I don't know of a reason "bara" should be translated "fill". 

That "Light" fills darkness might can be truly said to be a property or effect of light.  But I don't think there's any reason other than a theological one for translating it that way. 

H1254
בּרא
bârâ'
Total KJV Occurrences: 53
created, 33
Gen_1:1, Gen_1:21, Gen_1:27 (3), Gen_2:3-4 (2), Gen_5:1-2 (3), Gen_6:7, Deu_4:32, Psa_89:12, Psa_102:18, Psa_104:30, Psa_148:5, Isa_40:26, Isa_41:20, Isa_42:5, Isa_43:1, Isa_45:7-8 (2), Isa_45:12, Isa_45:18 (2), Isa_48:7, Isa_54:16 (2), Jer_31:22, Eze_21:30, Eze_28:13, Eze_28:15, Mal_2:10
create, 8
Psa_51:10 (2), Isa_4:5, Isa_45:7 (2), Isa_57:19, Isa_65:17-18 (3)
creator, 3
Ecc_12:1, Isa_40:28, Isa_43:15
choose, 2
Eze_21:19 (2)
cut, 2
Jos_17:15, Jos_17:18
createth, 1
Amo_4:13
dispatch, 1
Eze_23:47
done, 1
Exo_34:10
fat, 1
1Sa_2:29
make, 1
Num_16:29-30 (2)
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

StevenL

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Re: " fill" darkness
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2017, 09:35:30 PM »

Hi Dave. Does 'fat' seem a bit out of place in that word list? Sometime I think some of these translators just make up a meaning of a seemingly out-of-place usage of a Hebrew or Greek word to fit their own idea of what it should say.

I like to look up each occurrence of a word (I use E-Sword) and compare the usage of the word among all the sentences. And then, compare the translation of the word among several translations. If you substitute 'fill' for the Hebrew word in each sentence, it's pretty quickly shown to be incongruent with the use and meaning. In some cases, 'fill' will work and makes at least some sense, but it just doesn't seem to bear the idea that the sentence is conveying. If it does, we may have quite a number of things wrong. Well, even more that we thought anyway.

God 'filled' the heavens and the earth? God 'filled' the great whales...? The north and the south, you have 'filled' them...?  I have 'filled' the smith...? I have 'filled' the waster to destroy...?  I 'fill' the fruit of the lips...?  The Lord has 'filled' a new thing in the earth...?

I don't buy it. I think it's just another attempt to relieve poor Father of his responsibility for evil. Sure wish He hadn't let evil get so out of His control. We have to help Him out of His jam. :D

I Googled the guy's name with his translation and found a universalist forum conversation where this was being discussed. Seems that most of the posters there were certain that God did NOT create or cause evil, and most are certain that they have 'free will', so the translation was at least somewhat acceptable to them. Some were delighted with it.

Sometime, when one, or very few, people come up with an idea that bucks the majority, it's worth a close look. Example: Ray Smith. Sometime, they're just ignorant and should be ignored.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: " fill" darkness
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2017, 10:33:48 PM »

Yes, "fat" seems a little out of place.  It's assumed in the sentence, not a direct translation of the word "בּרא bârâ' "

But whether or not "fat" is out of place is less important than remembering that no scripture is it's own interpretation and that multiple non-contradictory witnesses are necessary to establish a truth.  If Bartholomew's translation is "reasonable" yet the reading of it makes a lie out of other scripture, then he (or any reading him) hasn't established a truth.  He's inserted a commentary, in my opinion, that doesn't stand up on it's own against so much witness against it.  I don't know if that was his intention.  But if he really is trying to absolve God of His responsibility for everything, then that's a straw not worth grabbing.

 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

octoberose

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Re: " fill" darkness
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2017, 03:45:26 AM »

Thank you ! I have got to figure out e sword .  :)
    It is so disheartening how people manipulate scripture - well, they will see in time and I will be glad for that day.
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: " fill" darkness
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2017, 09:41:15 AM »

Just remember, e-Sword is not perfect.
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