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The Healed Head Wound
Dennis Vogel:
--- Quote ---Us acknowledging that it is God who sent His son to pay the price for us.. that is the deadly wound. But us believing that we are saved by our own free choice to fall upon the stone.. that is us healing ourselves.
--- End quote ---
Are you making a statement that we have the ability to heal ourselves, or are you saying we 'mistakenly think' we have the ability to save ourselves?
lareli:
--- Quote from: Dennis Vogel on June 23, 2017, 01:33:50 PM ---
--- Quote ---Us acknowledging that it is God who sent His son to pay the price for us.. that is the deadly wound. But us believing that we are saved by our own free choice to fall upon the stone.. that is us healing ourselves.
--- End quote ---
Are you making a statement that we have the ability to heal ourselves, or are you saying we 'mistakenly think' we have the ability to save ourselves?
--- End quote ---
'Mistakenly think'
In as much as I 'mistakenly think' I have a free choice to fall upon the stone.
But the doctrine of free will doesn't assume that we are healing ourselves. The church as I experienced it would never say that we heal or save ourselves. They would acknowledge Christ as the Savior and the stone. But they will say that the choice to accept or reject the Savior.. the choice to fall upon the stone or to reject the stone is ours. Hence we are the ones who decide to get healed. But while acknowledging that Christ is the healer.
But when taken together, thats wrong. As God is the one responsible for both the healing/saving and also He is responsible for the choosing.
That's what's deceptive about it. The church (in my experience) mixes error with truth. The truth being that Christ is the healer and Savior. The error being that we can freely choose to fall upon the stone.
Dave in Tenn:
Exactly. He does the "calling" and He does the "choosing". Not only does He choose who falls on the stone, He chooses on whom the Stone will fall.
Peter (and the others) followed when they were called. There's no misunderstanding that fact. (They fell on the Stone).
But when they were "chosen" (that is to say, spiritually converted)--or when it came time to reveal that they had been chosen-- it wasn't by any choice they made. If anything, it was IN SPITE OF the choices they made (to fall away/deny Him). And they did so (deny Him) in spite of their own "will" in the matter. Peter said "I will never deny you." Jesus said, "...you will deny Me." Who was right?
He chose Peter on whom the Stone fell.
This is the Peter to whom was given the keys to the Kingdom. "Except there be a falling away..."
lareli:
That's interesting Dave I hadn't thought about the head wound of the disciples as they followed Christ.
Question.. we've been discussing 'the church' and how 'the church' doesn't teach any truths. But also where Ray said that many truths are taught in the church.
My question is; if there is no truth in anything that 'the church' teaches, than how would a deadly head wound be possible? If the deadly head wound is referring to Jesus saying "whoever falls on the stone will be broken" and the head wound is administered by the sword of God.. ?
Dave in Tenn:
Question.. we've been discussing 'the church' and how 'the church' doesn't teach any truths. But also where Ray said that many truths are taught in the church.
Let's not get back into that topic. Enough has been said lately, and much of it is simply "strife over words" or, worse, one-upsmanship.
My question is; if there is no truth in anything that 'the church' teaches, than how would a deadly head wound be possible? If the deadly head wound is referring to Jesus saying "whoever falls on the stone will be broken" and the head wound is administered by the sword of God.. ?
It is as Ray explained it.
Here's an additional scripture for consideration.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Same "bible"...dividing asunder soul and spirit. I don't have a different "bible" than I had in my church days (may know a few more translations). What I have is a different understanding.
And another:
Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
The light that was in me was darkness.
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