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[octoberose]

Thank you so much for  the replies .  ( I don't know how but my autocorrect just wrote 'therapies' . Is that not pretty hilarious? )
  Dave, you are so right that this has been robing me of my joy.  How'd you know?
 I don't want to just read Ray's words and accept them, I want to understand. I understood so quickly the fundamental things of this site. It was wonderful and you all know just what I mean. But this, this end times understanding, as John says God has just not given it to me yet. Oh, I can read the words but  they don't seem to work for me yet. Arggh. 
 Love Romans 15:13 Pamela!  Truly the Holy Spirit is the only one who can impart God's peace, joy and hope. Everything else is counterfeit.
 
 

[lareli]

I don't know about the Hebrew Israelites but the Christian democracies of America and Europe are the "Israel of God" in prophecy according to Ray.

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,16903.0.html

I don't know if this adds anything to this thread but just remembered a thread on this a while back so thought I'd post the link. I understand you're asking about the genetic physical Israel and not the prophetic Israel necessarily but.. I dunno.

[John from Kentucky]

The Scriptural rule of two or three witnesses to establish a Scriptural Truth applies to everyone.

What are the two Scriptures that say America and Europe are the Israel of God?  Just two Scriptures please.

[Dave in Tenn]

The Scriptural rule of two or three witnesses to establish a Scriptural Truth applies to everyone.

What are the two Scriptures that say America and Europe are the Israel of God?  Just two Scriptures please.

John, I'm, sorry...but that may be one of the most foolish questions I've seen in a while.  There aren't "two scriptures" that say I am typing on a computer keyboard at this moment, either.  I assure you, however, that I was.  America and Europe are not mentioned by name in Scripture, so one has to look at the "references" and make a judgement.  That America and the Europeans make up the largest part of the history of Christendom is a no-brainer.  Aside from a few exceptions (exceptions to the rule are allowed, as in some of the physical Jews of Christ's day were also part of His church, including all of the Apostles) the "Church" spread out with the Roman Empire primarily into Europe.  The history from that point is pretty clear as well.

If not Europe and the US, then what "kings" have been responsible for the spread of Christendom throughout the world?  Who else has said "Lord, Lord" and not done the things He said?  Who else is responsible for "many wonderful works" but are cast aside because He never knew them?  Who else has said the He is the Christ, but have deceived many? 

I know it's not all about "kings" and governments.  These things are also "symbolic" of Spiritual things that also reside in individuals.  But "prophecy" is pronounced in broad terms.   

HIS Spiritual church, however, comes out of that Church--the "Israel of God" in prophecy. 

[Dave in Tenn]

Thank you so much for  the replies .  ( I don't know how but my autocorrect just wrote 'therapies' . Is that not pretty hilarious? )
  Dave, you are so right that this has been robing me of my joy.  How'd you know?
 

Yes, that's funny.  And I didn't "know" know...I just knew.  Anytime I've considered the Revelation as (first) 'literal', and (then) symbolic of physical things, the results have been less-than-satisfying, to say the least.  I couldn't work up a smidgen of joy, for example, over "streets of gold" and "gates of pearl" and strange creatures that worshipped around a throne, and other things that were supposed to "inspire" me.  Forget about things that were supposed to scare the hell out of me...like a lake of fire.

Hang in there, and remember it's in looking back, we see.  You just haven't made the connection completely between what you've already gone through in your faith and understanding (both good and bad) and what's in there.  Those bolded verses are well-taught by Ray, and you know what they mean better than most, even if you don't know you know.  I'm convinced of that. 

[lareli]

 Oh, and the two witnesses - that's so interesting it's brought up because I was reading about the two witnesses in Revelations and how they were dead and then rise again. What could that be about in Revelations if we understand the two witnesses to be two or three witnesses to the truth?  Ray did not think these were people or spiritual beings, just biblical truths?  But how does that fit? I don't understand it.

Perhaps (or perhaps not) an interesting side note,

I was listening to this podcast about 'cults' yesterday and I learned that the two leaders of the Heavens Gate cult believed, and deceived about 30 or so followers into believing, that they were the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation.. they ended up committing the largest mass suicide in America history..

[John from Kentucky]

The Scriptural rule of two or three witnesses to establish a Scriptural Truth applies to everyone.

What are the two Scriptures that say America and Europe are the Israel of God?  Just two Scriptures please.

John, I'm, sorry...but that may be one of the most foolish questions I've seen in a while.  There aren't "two scriptures" that say I am typing on a computer keyboard at this moment, either.  I assure you, however, that I was.  America and Europe are not mentioned by name in Scripture, so one has to look at the "references" and make a judgement.  That America and the Europeans make up the largest part of the history of Christendom is a no-brainer.  Aside from a few exceptions (exceptions to the rule are allowed, as in some of the physical Jews of Christ's day were also part of His church, including all of the Apostles) the "Church" spread out with the Roman Empire primarily into Europe.  The history from that point is pretty clear as well.

If not Europe and the US, then what "kings" have been responsible for the spread of Christendom throughout the world?  Who else has said "Lord, Lord" and not done the things He said?  Who else is responsible for "many wonderful works" but are cast aside because He never knew them?  Who else has said the He is the Christ, but have deceived many? 

I know it's not all about "kings" and governments.  These things are also "symbolic" of Spiritual things that also reside in individuals.  But "prophecy" is pronounced in broad terms.   

HIS Spiritual church, however, comes out of that Church--the "Israel of God" in prophecy.

No need to be sorry.  I am not going to cut my wrists over something said about me.  I cannot be offended.

One thing I learned from Ray is once you have the truth, then do not let it go.

Another learned from Ray is the need for at least two witnesses to establish any Scriptural Truth.  God gave us the rule to keep His true Church in the Truth over the ages.

It is not about if you are typing on your keyboard.  It is about what is Scriptural Truth and Doctrine.

Ray taught that the false church cannot even provide one witness, much less two, to their lying teachings of immortal soul, heaven, hell, eternal punishment, God is a trinity, and on and on they go.

In the Book of Galatians, the inspired Apostle Paul spoke of the Israel of God.  But he did not mention America or
 Europe.

The false Worldwide Church of God taught us unfortunate members that the United States and Great Britain were the modern day descendants of Israel.  So I am very familiar with this false doctrine.

So this foolish follower of Jesus asks a simple question.  For those of you who believe that America and Europe are the Israel of God, what are your two Scriptures in proof?  Two Scriptures please in support of your teaching.

[Dave in Tenn]

Show me two or three scriptures that mention you and me by name, and I'll respond.  And I'm not talking about the Apostle and the King who were named before we were.  Yet I am certain that we are both "in there" and spiritual truths are true about us both.

To be clear to largeli and others, this link has a much fuller explanation of the term than John has provided.

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,16903.msg153479.html#msg153479

It goes back to the basis of what was said earlier in the thread (which John agreed with completely).  The Israel of God in prophecy is the whole of the "Church" (Judeo-Christianity, the Great Whore, Jerusalem below, spiritual Sodom and Babylon, and those being called out of her) while the "Israel of God" which Paul mentioned is this "Israel (Church)" undergoing judgement and separation--the "circumcision/uncircumicision" that matters he had just moments before written about.

Two judgements.  One fire.  https://bible-truths.com/lake3.html

And the one John mentioned in the above thread:  https://bible-truths.com/lake8.html

The called and the called and chosen.  The church, and His church.

If christian Europe and christian America are NOT in any way, historically or currently, heirs, daughters, and proponents of the Great False religion, then we can all breathe a huge sigh of relief that they are not in the prophecy and get dressed for Church this Sunday.  Except for the Sabbath-keepers.  It's crystal clear from History that christian Europe and christian America have assumed the major role in the institution and spread of carnal religion.  Since it IS clear, and since the prophecy is clear to any with eyes to see, then to see them as a fulfillment of the prophecy makes perfect spiritual sense.  Only and exclusively?  Of course not...but predominately.

What Ray called christian Europe and America was the "Israel of God" in quotations.  Somehow, I doubt that the WWC made such a spiritual distinction.

   

[John from Kentucky]

I was a member of the Worldwide Church of God (WCG) for over 25 years.  Ray was a minister in that church.  Dennis and many others here were also members, although I do not recall meeting anyone here while I was a member of the WCG.

The WCG taught that the English speaking peoples were descendants of Joseph, whose sons received the birthright blessing from Israel.  The people of Great Britain and the Commonwealth nations came from Ephraim and the people of the United States came from Manassas.  The descendants of the other Ten Tribes lived in Western Europe.  What drivel and false teaching.  No Scriptural proof in support of those falsehoods.  No two witnesses.

Jesus freed me from the slavery of the WCG.  I will never go back to any false teachings.  Jesus placed me on the sands of a seashore.  I looked behind me and this ugly Beast rose out of the ocean.  The Beast was me and Jesus slayed it by the Words from His mouth.

"Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses, let every word be established."

I will not believe that America and Europe are the Israel of God unless at least Two Scriptural Witnesses are provided, that they are a Spiritual match, and that they do not contradict other Scriptures.

Anything else is just opinion.

"Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit says the LORD of hosts."

[Dave in Tenn]

As I expected.  WCG promotes carnal, completely unsupported doctrine.  I don't blame you for being glad to be free.  Had I ever believed such carnal-minded twaddle, I'd be glad to be rid of it too.  There are phrases from my own background (Southern Baptist) that still ring my bell when I hear them, even though my understanding has been changed concerning them.

I just want it made abundantly clear that Ray Smith did NOT teach that, and did not MEAN that when he used the phrase.
 Therefor the "phrase" holds a different meaning for me, and I trust to any who read the links.   Read the links.  That's all I can ask of anybody.       

[Dave in Tenn]

From LOF 11

A TALE OF TWO JERUSALEM'S

"Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is NEW JERUSALEM..." (Rev. 3:12).

What is this "New Jerusalem?" It is a "Mother." Mothers are women who have given birth to children. We have all been birthed by a physical woman-a mother. In order to be "born again," we must be birthed by a spiritual mother. And just who is that spiritual mother?

"For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage [through the DEPTHS of Satan] with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is THE MOTHER OF US ALL" (Gal. 4:25-26).

Our spiritual mother is Jerusalem above. Don't be deceived by the phrase, "...of us ALL," seeing that Paul himself puts a disclaimer at the end of chapter 5 showing specifically who the "all" includes here:

"For IN Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a NEW CREATURE [creation] . And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the [spiritual] Israel of God" (Gal. 5:15-16).

And what is this "rule" that Paul is speaking of? Why those who are living by the spirit, and not the flesh and letter of the Law of Moses. Those who live by the "Law of the SPIRIT" which is what the New Covenant is all about.

"LOVE your enemies!"

"Love NOT the world, neither the things that are in the world"

The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life!

"I am crucified WITH Christ!"

These are the spiritual laws of the New Covenant. They are far superior to the laws of Moses under the Old Covenant.

MOUNT SINAI AND THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE BONDAGE

Paul tells us how Abraham had two sons-one was born of a bondwoman after the flesh, and the other born of a freewoman by promise. Paul says,

"which things are an allegory: for these ARE THE TWO COVENANTS; the one from the Mount Sinai [Mt Sinai is where the Ten Commandments and Laws of Moses were given. What is Gods attitude toward the Laws of Moses, the ten commandments, the Old Covenant-'Mt. Sinai'?] which genders [gives birth] to BONDAGE, which is Agar" (Gal. 4:24).

Notice how this whole Mosaic, Ten Commandment, Old Covenant, Mt. Sinai system is categorized:

"For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in BONDAGE with her children" (Verse 25).

" But Jerusalem which is above [spiritual Jerusalem] is FREE, which is the mother of us all... Nevertheless what says the scripture? CAST OUT the bondwoman AND her son [her children, Ver. 25] : for THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN" (Gal. 4:26 & 30).

And I believe we all understand that what being "heir" to, is the Kingdom of God.

------------------------------------------------------

[Musterseed]

From the Towers Paper

Gal.3:29..."And if you be Christ's then are you Abrahams SEED and HEIRS according to the promise"?
Gal. 6:15-16...For in Christ Jesus, nether circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature, and as many as walk as according to this rule, peace be on them and mercy and upon the ISRAEL OF GOD".
All caps are Ray's and he says" Yes it is the new creature ( creation) which is now the ISRAEL OF God. not the Christ forsaking Jews of modern day Palestine.

When Gentiles are Jews and Jews are not Jews
( Is America part of prophecy)?
Ray from the Towers Paper
Isaiah 30 Prophecy
"And so we have the historical fulfillment of prophecy. OR DO WE?
It has been remarked many times that prophecy is DUAL,
Actually I believe that many prophecies are multilayered, that is , they are numerous fulfillments, usually beginning with the physical and
literal moving toward the figurative and Spiritual."

Have you guys ever done a study on the Towers Paper and also Tophet of Old. I think it is very
eye opening especially nowadays?
Isa.30:25...... When God will once again ordain Tophet of old. (Figuratively not literally)
Anyway, maybe we can start a new thread about it. I'm going camping on the beach for the weekend for one more time before  the snow flies. God Bless all of you. Pamela

[lareli]

Camping on the beach? I'm jealous! have a great time Pamela.

[lareli]

Email to Ray about America, Great Britain and Israel..

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,5688.msg46050.html#msg46050

[AwesomeSavior]

And now we have Hurricane Nate slamming into the Gulf Coast... Anyone want to guess WHY God has caused Hurricane Nate? You might want to read this:

U.S President Donald Trump said Saturday that he wanted to give his efforts to reach peace between Israelis and Palestinian Arabs a chance before moving the U.S. embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. "I want to give that a shot before I even think about moving the embassy to Jerusalem," Trump told former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee in an interview on his new program "Huckabee". "If we can make peace between the Palestinians and Israel, I think it'll lead to ultimately peace in the Middle East, which has to happen," he added.

Hours before going on air, Trump took to Twitter to promote the show and his appearance on it, inviting his followers to watch him make an appearance as Huckabee's first guest.

I will now be adding this hurricane to my long list of examples of God's reaction to that whole phony "peace" process. By the way John from Kentucky, your state will be feeling some of this weather.

Remember what Jesus told the Pharisees in His day? Here is a double witness from the Scriptures:

"And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?" (Matthew 16:3)

"Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time? (Luke 12:56)

May God Bless.

Dean

[Dave in Tenn]

Mat 16:1  The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.

Luk 12:54  And He also said to the crowd (in parable), When you see the cloud rising up from the west, you immediately say, A storm is coming; and it happens so.
Luk 12:55  And when a south wind is blowing, you say, There will be heat; and it occurs.
Luk 12:56  Hypocrites! You know to discern the face of the earth and of the heaven, but how is it you do not discern this time?

 


 

[John from Kentucky]

And now we have Hurricane Nate slamming into the Gulf Coast... Anyone want to guess WHY God has caused Hurricane Nate? You might want to read this:

U.S President Donald Trump said Saturday that he wanted to give his efforts to reach peace between Israelis and Palestinian Arabs a chance before moving the U.S. embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. "I want to give that a shot before I even think about moving the embassy to Jerusalem," Trump told former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee in an interview on his new program "Huckabee". "If we can make peace between the Palestinians and Israel, I think it'll lead to ultimately peace in the Middle East, which has to happen," he added.

Hours before going on air, Trump took to Twitter to promote the show and his appearance on it, inviting his followers to watch him make an appearance as Huckabee's first guest.

I will now be adding this hurricane to my long list of examples of God's reaction to that whole phony "peace" process. By the way John from Kentucky, your state will be feeling some of this weather.

Remember what Jesus told the Pharisees in His day? Here is a double witness from the Scriptures:

"And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?" (Matthew 16:3)

"Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time? (Luke 12:56)

May God Bless.

Dean

You should be careful about attributing bad weather events that kill and destroy to our Great God like the unlearned who incorrectly call them Acts of God.

Much can be learned from the Book of Job (possibly the oldest book of Scripture in terms of when written) of basic knowledge of sources of good and evil.

The great wind or tornado that killed Job's ten children came from Satan.  Elsewhere in the New Testament, Satan is called the Prince of the Power of the air, and the god of this world.  These destructive killing events are Acts of Satan.  He has been given these powers for now.

For your own sake, take care in stating that God is doing these evil events.  He may overlook your ignorance, but then again may bring you to judgment.  Tread lightly and respectfully with Almighty God.

In Kentucky we are already getting some rain.  The harvest is over.  We are dry and the rain is good.  My grass and rose bushes can use the water.  "The LORD gives and the LORD takes.  Praise be to the LORD." (Job)


P.S.  We used to have a rule against discussing politics and political leaders on the Forum.  Hope that rule is still enforced.  It is a good rule.  Bad enough if we have to listen to religious error.  Discussing politics would bring one to tears and gnashing of teeth.

[AwesomeSavior]

Can Satan do anything without the permission of God?
 
"Did not your fathers thus, and did not OUR GOD bring all this EVIL upon us, and upon this CITY? (Nehemiah 13:18)

"Shall there be EVIL in a CITY, and THE LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6)

Yes, much can be learned by the book of Job regarding the weather, can't it? How about these, for example...

"Then THE LORD answered Job out of the WHIRLWIND (Job 38:1)

"Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail, Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war? (Job 38:22-23)

"Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are? (Job 38:35)

Perhaps you, John, should read the entire chapters of Job 38-39, and see what natural events God attributes to HIMSELF. Or will you contend with GOD like Job?

"And, behold, I, even I, do bring a FLOOD OF WATERS upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die". (Genesis 6:7)

Shall we go over the basics of Noah's flood, John?