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John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
Joel:
Also Santgem,
Not sure what you are saying in your statement; "Many are called but few are chosen......Yes is true!"
I'm not questioning the "many called but few are chosen" statement, but would you clarify how it meshes with the rest of your post?
Joel
John from Kentucky:
--- Quote from: santgem on October 12, 2017, 07:32:30 AM ---
When there is only God;
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me. Isa 43:10
I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior. Isa 43:11
...I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God. Isa 44:6
...Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one. Isa 44:8
...I am the LORD, Who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself. Isa 44:24
I am the LORD, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me. Isa 45:5
That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other. Isa 45:6
I am the LORD, and there is no other. Isa 45:18
And there is no God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me. Isa 45:21
For I am God, and there is no other. Isa 45:22
--- End quote ---
Thank you for these old friends santgem.
Scriptural proof that there is only One God.
Musterseed:
1 John 5:20. ANd we know that the Son Of God has come and has given us understanding
So that we may know Him who is TRUE, IN his son Jesus Christ, He is the TRUE God and eternal
life.
From video, Inherit the Kingdom
Can two individuals be ONE GOD,,,,,,,YES
Dennis Vogel:
It seems I owe you an apology George. 'Through' is a proper term:
(ASV) yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.
(CLV) nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him."
(Diaglott-NT) but to us one God the Father, out of whom the all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Anointed, through whom the all things, and we through him.
(KJV) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
(Rotherham) Yet, to us, there is one God the Father, of whom are all things, and, we, for him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and, we, through him.
(YLT) yet to us is one God, the Father, of whom are the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are the all things, and we through Him;
These verses also state that there is one "God the Father" and one "Lord Jesus Christ." That's two individuals, but only one is called God the Father. But Jesus is equal to God:
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
If they are one and the same, how can Jesus be equal with himself?
We know that Jesus and God the Father are one: Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
But that does not mean they are one and the same being. Jesus died but God the Father is immortal and cannot die.
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
If they are one and the same being then God the Father also died, which we know is not possible.
But perhaps I misunderstood you and you mean there is one God comprised of two separate individuals? One of whom died for our sins, but the other cannot die.
Dave in Tenn:
--- Quote from: Dennis Vogel on October 13, 2017, 01:48:43 AM ---
(ASV) yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.
(CLV) nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him."
(Diaglott-NT) but to us one God the Father, out of whom the all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Anointed, through whom the all things, and we through him.
(KJV) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
(Rotherham) Yet, to us, there is one God the Father, of whom are all things, and, we, for him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and, we, through him.
(YLT) yet to us is one God, the Father, of whom are the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are the all things, and we through Him;
These verses also state that there is one "God the Father" and one "Lord Jesus Christ." That's two individuals, but only one is called God the Father. But Jesus is equal to God:
--- End quote ---
That's not what Ray taught, Dennis. At the very least, he raised the important question about how that verse is translated.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
My Lord AND My God. Here, at least, not TWO, but ONE.
I know this can be difficult, but Ray promised that the "enigma" was not covered in any of the world's common theologies.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Since it is the Jewss talking, perhaps this verse should read "...He said also that God was his Father, making Himself appear to be equal with God." They certainly didn't believe He was "equal to God". They certainly didn't believe He was God.
The very next verse is: Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (To the Jews, in parable).
Besides, God is Spirit. Can Spirit be an "individual"? We only know Father through Son (No man can come to the Father but by the Son). We only see Father through Son (He is the express image of Invisible God...If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father).
We are formed in His image. We're not "two individuals". Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formeth the man--dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature. And Jehovah God is--one God the Father, out of whom the all things. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; this one was in the beginning with God; all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened... one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are the all things.
I know there are dozens of Scriptures that mention Father and Son. Jesus himself used the term, and often. But His words are Spirit. He describes things Spiritually, even when he's not speaking in parables. And to claim every reference to "God" in the New Testament as being about "God the Father" is (or may be) theological assumption based on the supposition that that there are two "individuals". I don't doubt the Father. The literal Father of Jesus Christ the man was Holy Spirit. Can Spirit (which is everywhere) not also be in one "place" specifically and for an appointed time? "The Father is in me..." Can't Christ (who now has immortality) Who humbled Himself to become a man, died, rose and ascended to the "right hand" of the Father (which Ray taught is not a literal seat on a literal right hand), given glory (which Jehovah God does not share, much less with another "individual") be both Lord and God?
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THE GLORY OF GOD
If Jesus and Jehovah are just different spellings of the very same name, how can Jesus be Jehovah and Jehovah be Jesus? Good question, and I will try to solve that enigma for you in my paper "Solving the Enigma of God." But for now, let's notice a few things that do prove that this is so.
Did Jehovah say that He was NEVER gives His glory to another? Yes He did.
"The God of Israel, the LORD of hosts...For Mine Own sake, even for Mine Own sake, will I do it: for how should My Name be polluted? and I will NOT give My glory unto another" (Isaiah 48:2 &11).
"I am the LORD [YHWH-Jehovah/Jesus]: that is My Name: and My glory will I NOT give unto another, neither My praise to graven images" (Isaiah 42:8).
If Jesus is not Jehovah, how do we square these statement of Jehovah in Isaiah with the following statement of Jesus Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John?
"For the Son of man shall come IN THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER with His angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works" (Matt. 16:27).
"Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of Me and of My words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when HE COMES IN THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER with the holy angels" (Mark 8:38).
"For whosoever shall be ashamed of Me and of My words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when HE SHALL COME IN HIS OWN GLORY, AND IN HIS FATHER'S [GLORY], and of the holy angels" (Luke 9:26)..
"And now, O Father, GLORIFY THOU ME WITH THINE OWN SELF [Thine OWN glory] with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (John 17:5)..
"When Jesus heard that He said:
"This sickness is not unto death, but FOR THE GLORY OF GOD, that THE SON of God might be GLORIFIED THEREBY" (John 11:4).
God's word does not contradict. When Jehovah gave Jesus His "glory," He did not give it to "another." Jesus is not "another." Jesus IS Jehovah! And... AND, Jehovah IS JESUS.
Notice below just Who John prepared a road in the wilderness for. Isaiah says Jehovah, whereas Mark says Jesus.
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Jehovah/Jesus existed before the foundation. There is none beside Him. Jesus the man was born at a certain time and place and recieved that name, and died "in the fulness of time". It may well be a logical conclusion that Son can't be Father, but it is not outisde the scope of Spiritual understanding that Father can become Son.
There's no specific mention of "Father" in the Old Testament (except what refers to Son). Jesus came to reveal the Father. Jesus did not come to reveal a "being" who did not exist before He did. Jesus did not come to reveal an "individual" now to be known as "the Father" that isn't mentioned in the Old Covenant Scripture at all, much less as an individual. Jesus did not come to reveal another God not known before He revealed Him, much less one more powerful. He came to reveal the Father, and He said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. Speaking Spirit.
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