> General Discussions
John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
Joel:
The way I see it, EVERYONE gets in trouble trying to explain the Godhead beyond what the scriptures say.
Joel
santgem:
Nobody had heard the voice of God the Father in any point in time, even now.
If, "I am the LORD" [YHWH-Jehovah/I AM/WORD] is Jesus and he said these things;
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me. Isa 43:10
I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior. Isa 43:11
...I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God. Isa 44:6
...Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one. Isa 44:8
...I am the LORD, Who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself. Isa 44:24
I am the LORD, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me. Isa 45:5
Isa 45:6, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:22 and many others
then why many of us here said that "Jesus was created".
Is the two or three scriptures still questionable?
Jesus had a Father and God When he was born with a virgin.
Jer 32:27Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?
When Jesus had a flesh he had God, when at that point in time Yahweh/Jehovah/Jesus is speaking to the patriarchs He is the only God.
Stacey:
I hope this thread doesn’t get locked or put away before good answers to the questions are figured out. Wouldnt it be fantastic to know we can look right here for understanding about the Father and the Son?
Santgem, Isaiah 43:10 states He was formed. The Lord God of the Old Testament says He was formed.
Who formed Him? Someone other than Himself?
As far as I know, the Lord God of the Old Testament never claimed to be the Father.
Now I should go back to my quiet safe place but,
Was it not The Lord God of the Old Testament who became our Savior Jesus Christ?
santgem:
--- Quote from: Stacey on October 15, 2017, 08:20:32 AM ---I hope this thread doesn’t get locked or put away before good answers to the questions are figured out. Wouldnt it be fantastic to know we can look right here for understanding about the Father and the Son?
Santgem, Isaiah 43:10 states He was formed. The Lord God of the Old Testament says He was formed.
Who formed Him? Someone other than Himself?
As far as I know, the Lord God of the Old Testament never claimed to be the Father.
Now I should go back to my quiet safe place but,
Was it not The Lord God of the Old Testament who became our Savior Jesus Christ?
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. KJV - Isa 43:10
“You are My witnesses,” says the LORD,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.NKJV
But you are my witnesses, O Israel!” says the LORD.
“You are my servant.
You have been chosen to know me, believe in me,
and understand that I alone am God.
There is no other God—
there never has been, and there never will be.NLT
“You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.NIV
“You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor shall there be any after me.ESV
“You are my witnesses” —
this is the Lord’s declaration —
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
No god was formed before me,
and there will be none after me.CSB
“You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
So that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.NASB
You are my witnesses," says the LORD, "my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may consider and believe in me, and understand that I am he. No god was formed before me, and none will outlive me.NET
"You are my witnesses," says the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.RSV
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.ASV
Ye are My witnesses, an affirmation of Jehovah, And My servant whom I have chosen, So that ye know and give credence to Me, And understand that I am He, Before Me there was no God formed, And after Me there is none.YLT
--- End quote ---
1. Jesus is preordained
2. Jesus is already the Saviour before the foundation of the world
3. The Three scriptures below comparatively connected to Jesus
Psalm 22. I was thrust into your arms at my birth. You have been my God from the moment I was born.
Jer 32:27Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?
Gal 4:4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.
God the Father and Jesus shared the same glory.
Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Dennis Vogel:
Jesus was sent:
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
And who is the greater?
Joh_13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
We are told many times there is one God and there is no denying that. But you have to reconcile the fact that Jesus has a God and that God is the one God. God the Father has no god, so they are different.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
2Co 1:3 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of pities and God of all consolation,
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who, according to His vast mercy, regenerates us into a living expectation, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from among the dead,
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
As the Mediator Jesus is called a man:
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(Notice one God and [in addition] one mediator)
But God the Father is not a man:
Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
1Sa 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.
Did God the Father have to learn obedience?
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Jesus was not disobedient as a man on this earth (if you disagree show me where). He learned obedience before coming to this earth. See https://youtu.be/086Vs1YfaEo
Why would Jesus have to turn anything over to God the Father if they are one-and-the-same?
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Saying Jesus always existed smacks of the trinity.
And as Stacey said "Isaiah 43:10 states He was formed."
Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
I suggest you listen to Ray's last bible study: https://youtu.be/v-2Wq72GmqY
I have other items on a list and it seems there is a never ending supply of verses showing God the Father and Jesus are not one-and-the-same. This is not some nebulous theory. But I will continue if need be.
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