> General Discussions
John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
Dennis Vogel:
I never said there was not one God and God and Jesus are not one, because we are told they are one.
But multiple individuals (beings, entities, or whatever word you choose) can also be one with God and Jesus.
John 17:11
(ASV) that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me.
(CLV) that they may all be one, according as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us, that the world should be believing that Thou dost commission Me."
(Diaglott-NT) That all one may be; as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee, that also they in us one may be; that the world may believe, that thou me didst send.
(KJV) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
(Rotherham) That they, all, may be, one,—even as, thou, Father, in me, and, I, in thee,—that, they also, in us, may be;—that, the world, may believe that, thou, didst send me forth.
(YLT) that they all may be one, as Thou Father art in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me.
"As Thou" (as You) is someone speaking to someone else.
And much of what George posted confirms that God and Jesus are not one-and-the-same.
Dave in Tenn:
--- Quote from: Dennis Vogel on October 17, 2017, 11:04:36 AM ---I never said there was not one God and God and Jesus are not one, because we are told they are one.
--- End quote ---
Dennis, this is more than mere semantics. Where in the New Testament are we told that "God and Jesus" are one? I don't know of a place. We're told, by Jesus Christ, that He and the Father are one. I think that's an important distinction, but not "the answer" by itself. If anyone assumes any and/or every mention of "God" "Theos" in the NT refers solely to the Father, that's an unfounded assumption. That is also playing fast and loose with Scripture.
Dennis Vogel:
I'm trying to understand but not getting anywhere.
If Jesus and God are absolutely one-and-the-same did Jesus actually die (dead as dead can be)? Seriously, please tell me, how did that work?
And then there is everything else I've posted (like God is not a man but Jesus is a man), and much more I have not posted. I don't get it.
It makes more sense to believe they share the same spirit (so to speak) because Jesus knows His Father thru and thru but they are not one-and-the-same being. They are Father and Son.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Jesus says if you have seen me you have seen the Father. But does anyone believe God the Father looks like a 33 year old Jew? He is not talking about the outward appearance. It's not literally applicable:
Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
He that hath seen me hath seen the Father is symbolic as are many topics in the bible.
Again, watch this video: https://youtu.be/v-2Wq72GmqY
Having a God that was tempted in every way and suffered greatly as someone I can identify with and knows first hand what we are going thru makes sense. This is why He pleads our case before the Father who did not have to learn obedience.
Joel:
John 1:1-5 makes it pretty clear to me.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning WITH God. All things were made by HIM; and without HIM was not any thing made that was made.
In HIM was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
The way I see it, THE SPIRIT, and THE WORD are God, the ONE GOD, THE FATHER, and THE SON.
Joel
Dave in Tenn:
It's a cool video. I like the first few minutes best. That's honest struggle, and consideration of scripture, and open-mindedness. I would have enjoyed being there, and I HAVE been in "that chair" in my own "room". (I would have loved to have chimed in at about the 30:00 mark when they were talking about how did Paul knew Col. 2:9? From the Old Testament?
Yeah, I think so.
But I stopped coming at things from trying to understand every related verse, and all the possible permutations of translation, and whether or not this verse was symbolic and the one that seemed to contradict it was "literal". And trying to consider mightily HUGE topics like "eternal" and on and on and on. I reckoned, "Dave, if you can't understand the simpler things, how are you going to understand the larger things? If you don't understand physical things, how are you going to understand spiritual things they represent?"
So I considered the one parable He gave to me, and to all mankind (if they read and believe).
Gen 1:26 And saying is the Elohim, "Make will We humanity in Our image, and according to Our likeness:
Gen 2:7 And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (Spirit) of life; and Man became a living soul.
And to simplify it further for a poor country boy, "..Jehovah Elohim formed...a living soul...in likeness and image."
I am formed a living Soul, a walking, talking parable of the One God. He's "Father" and "Son". I'm spirit and Me.
That's my way in.
From there I re-meditated. "What is a living soul?" Ray covered that. I am a living soul. "Who or what is Jehovah Elohim?" Ray covered that. He's GOD. What is God? Among other things, God is Love, and God is Spirit. What else is Spirit? "The words I speak to you are Spirit and they are life."
So what words did Jesus say about the Father and the Son? I looked them up. And I read them "spiritually". And I believed them "spiritually".
I am similar to/like "Father" and "Son".
A couple of examples?
"If you have seen me, you have seen the Father". I'm like that. If you observe me (from the outside, which is all you CAN do) long enough (Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?) you'd know ME a lot more.
"The Servant is not greater than the master." The living soul I am is not greater than the Spirit that gives me life. Without it, I'm just a well-designed hunk of meat. With it, I'm able to walk, talk, think, feel, and consider my own existence, and the nature of God.
"If I am not doing My Father's works, do not believe Me." It is the spirit in ME that determines the works *I" do. Demo? "A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things...". That's the way we "living souls" work! At least that's the way THIS one does. Some may think they choose what they dip out with their free-will.
Enough to at least be understood?
God is One. I am one, though "spirit" and "soul" are not one-and-the-same. One comes first, the other immediately (apparently), and inexorably follows.
There is none beside Him. There is none beside ME that is ME.
He formed Man in His image (form), and we are what we are because of what HE is in form. Not a 6'4" invisible Tennessee Feller and Feller Junior, but Spirit and Soul.
Col 2:8,9 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. I'm LIKE that, though I'm NOT that. Yet all the fulness of spirit and soul "dwells' in MY body, for that's all I am. That's the whole enchilada.
(Theology is a branch of Philosophy http://factmyth.com/the-branches-of-philosophy-overview/).
The only time Jesus can possibly be referred to as a "person" was from the time He was begotten of Mary and Holy Spirit till the time He died on the Cross. Before, He was ONE GOD. After, He is ONE GOD. And during, He was ONE GOD.
Santgem, it doesn't trouble me, with this understanding, that people say "The Son was created, and/or formed". Can you see why not?
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version