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Author Topic: John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers  (Read 2224 times)

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cheekie3

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John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
« on: October 10, 2017, 03:12:44 AM »

All -

I love this passage of The New Testament Scriptures, as it is full of the riches of His Wisdom:

John 8: Amplified Bible (AMP)

12 Once more Jesus addressed the crowd. He said, “[a]I am the Light of the world. He who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.” 13 Then the Pharisees told Him, “You are testifying on Your own behalf; Your testimony is not valid.” 14 Jesus replied, “Even if I do testify on My own behalf, My testimony is valid, because I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge according to human standards [just by what you see]. I do not judge anyone. 16 But even if I do judge, My judgment is true and My decision is right; for I am not alone [in making it], but I and the Father who sent Me [make the same judgment]. 17 Even in your own law it is written that the testimony of two persons is true [valid and admissible]. 18 I am One [of the Two] who testifies about Myself, and My Father who sent Me testifies about Me.” 19 Then the Pharisees said to Him, “Where is this Father of Yours?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.” 20 Jesus said these things in the treasury, as He taught in the temple [courtyard]; and no one seized Him, because His time had not yet come.

21 Then He said again to them, “I am going away, and you will look for Me, and you will die [unforgiven and condemned] in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come.” 22 So the Jews were asking [among themselves], “Will He kill Himself? Is that why He says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” 23 He said to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 That is why I told you that you will die [unforgiven and condemned] in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am the One [I claim to be], you will die in your sins.” 25 So they said to Him, “Who are You [anyway]?” Jesus replied, “What have I been saying to you from the beginning? 26 I have many things to say and judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I say to the world [only] the things that I have heard from Him.” 27 They did not realize [or have the spiritual insight to understand] that He was speaking to them about the Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man [on the cross], you will know then [without any doubt] that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own authority, but I say these things just as My Father taught Me. 29 And He who sent Me is [always] with Me; He has not left Me alone, because I always do what pleases Him.” 30 As He said these things, [c]many believed in Him.

31 So Jesus was saying to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you abide in My word [continually obeying My teachings and living in accordance with them, then] you are truly My disciples. 32 And you will know the truth [regarding salvation], and the truth will set you free [from the penalty of sin].” 33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been enslaved to anyone. [d]What do You mean by saying, ‘You will be set free’?”

34 Jesus answered, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, everyone who practices sin habitually is a slave of sin. 35 Now the slave does not remain in a household forever; the son [of the master] does remain forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, then you are unquestionably free. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you plan to kill Me, because My word has no place [to grow] in you [and it makes no change in your heart]. 38 I tell the things that I have seen at My Father’s side [in His very presence]; so you also do the things that you heard from your father.”

39 They answered, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are [truly] Abraham’s children, then do the works of Abraham and follow his example. 40 But as it is, you want to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God. This is not the way Abraham acted. 41 You are doing the works of your [own] father.” They said to Him, “We are not illegitimate children; we have one [spiritual] Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father [but He is not], you would love and recognize Me, for I came from God [out of His very presence] and have arrived here. For I have not even come on My own initiative [as self-appointed], but He [is the One who] sent Me. 43 Why do you misunderstand what I am saying? It is because [your spiritual ears are deaf and] you are unable to hear [the truth of] My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and it is your will to practice the desires [which are characteristic] of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks what is natural to him, for he is a liar and the father of lies and half-truths. 45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me [and continue in your unbelief]. 46 Which one of you [has proof and] convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 Whoever is of God and belongs to Him hears [the truth of] God’s words; for this reason you do not hear them: because you are not of God and you are not in fellowship with Him.”

48 The Jews answered Him, “Are we not right when we say You are a [e]Samaritan and [that You] have a demon [and are under its power]?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon. On the contrary, I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 However, I am not seeking glory for Myself. There is One who seeks [glory for Me] and judges [those who dishonor Me]. 51 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, if anyone keeps My word [by living in accordance with My message] he will indeed never, ever see and experience [f]death.” 52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon [and are under its power]. Abraham died, and also the prophets; yet You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never, ever taste of death.’ 53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too! Whom do You make Yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is [worth] nothing. It is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55 Yet you do not know Him, but I know Him fully. If I said I did not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham [greatly] rejoiced to see My day (My incarnation). [g]He saw it and was delighted.” 57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not even fifty years old, and You [claim to] have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus replied, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, before Abraham was born, [h]I Am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus concealed Himself and left the temple.

Warmest Regards.

George
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indianabob

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Re: John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2017, 02:29:23 PM »

George,
Thank for the passage v. 23 and v. 58 presented in your message.

Are we to understand from this passage and others to confirm the idea, that Jesus was saying that he was God the son or not?
And if so are we to understand that there were two in heaven prior to the creation of the Earth and all that is in it?
There seems to be a general confusion or dispute over these ideas and some clarity would be helpful.
Has Ray Smith addressed this question and where can his comments be found?

Indiana Bob
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cheekie3

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Re: John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2017, 03:47:02 PM »

Indiana Bob -

Regarding your questions below:

George,
Thank for the passage v. 23 and v. 58 presented in your message.

Are we to understand from this passage and others to confirm the idea, that Jesus was saying that he was God the son or not?
And if so are we to understand that there were two in heaven prior to the creation of the Earth and all that is in it?
There seems to be a general confusion or dispute over these ideas and some clarity would be helpful.
Has Ray Smith addressed this question and where can his comments be found?

Indiana Bob

I believe Ray has a lot of substance about your questions, on these two papers, on the BT site:

https://bible-truths.com/enigmaOfGod.htm

https://bible-truths.com/Creed.htm

This has been discussed many times on this Forum; and there are differences of understanding among us, with regards what Ray taught about The Father and His Son.

I understand that Ray taught that Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father; who created all things through His Beloved Son - who is the beginning of all creation.

Please note the following Scriptures:

"Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in My Father's Name, they bear witness of Me" (John 10:25).

"And I have declared unto them Thy Name, and will declare it..." (John 17:26).

"I have manifested Thy Name unto the men which Thou gavest Me." (John 17:6).

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy Name..." (John 17:12).

"I am come in My Father's Name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive..." (John 5:43).

Psalm 2:2- "The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, [Heb: YHWH-Jehovah] and against His Anointed, saying,"

Psalm 2:7-"I will declare the decree: the LORD [Heb: YHWH-Jehovah] hath said unto me, Thou art My Son; this day have I begotten Thee."

Psalm 2:11-"Serve the LORD [Heb: Jehovah] with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son..." (and Psalm 2:12)

"Being made so much better than the angels, as He has by INHERITANCE obtained a more excellent name than they." (Heb. 1:4).

"Wherefore God also has highly exalted Him, and given Him A NAME which is ABOVE EVERY NAME" (Phil. 2:9).

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep through Thine Own Name "those whom" Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as we are." (John 17:11).

"And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power, Which He wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places. Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and EVERY NAME THAT IS NAMED, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come" (Eph. 1:19-21).

"The Word was God... And the Word was made flesh..." God began fulfilling this aspect of His name when He came to us in the Flesh of Jesus Christ.

"For in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9).

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with them, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Rev. 21:2).

"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).

"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 1: 14-17) .

For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5) .

"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28) .

"...that the GOD OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ, the FATHER ..." (Eph. 1:17) .

In his https://bible-truths.com/trinity.html paper, Ray taught this:

There it is--Jesus Christ HAS A "GOD!" Paul wrote this and all of the above Scriptures AFTER Jesus Christ was resurrected and restored to His previous GLORIES in God. And in His glorified state, Jesus Christ is STILL subjected to HIS GOD ! Who wants to be the first blasphemer to even suggest that God the Father "has a God?"!!! But Jesus Christ, DOES have a God! Notice the following:

    Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

    Col. 1:3: "We are thanking the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

    I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

    Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5) .

    "Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16) .

    "Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4) .

    "The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3) .

    "The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)

    "God's CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT) .

    "If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42) .

    "Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18) .

    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1) . (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).

    "Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking] : 'Thy throne, O GOD , is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:8) .

I believe most of us on this forum agree with one of the following:

A. Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son - who is the 'Firstborn'.
B. The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created.

I hope this helps our understanding.

Warmest Regards.

George
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2017, 04:16:28 PM »

Quote
A. Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son - who is the 'Firstborn'.
B. The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created.

This is not what Ray taught and you should know that by now George.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Word did the creating by the power of the Heavenly Father.

Ray has said more than once that Jesus was created. The 'Firstborn.'
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 04:21:21 PM by Dennis Vogel »
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cheekie3

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Re: John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2017, 04:54:40 PM »

Dennis -

Thank you for confirming what Ray taught:

Quote
A. Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son - who is the 'Firstborn'.
B. The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created.

This is not what Ray taught and you should know that by now George.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Word did the creating by the power of the Heavenly Father.

Ray has said more than once that Jesus was created. The 'Firstborn.'

Unless I am missing something, I have stated what you have stated.

Warmest Regards.

George
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The Acts of The Apostles 1:8 (NIBEV) "But you shall receive power when His Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

Dennis Vogel

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Re: John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2017, 06:06:24 PM »

Dennis -

Thank you for confirming what Ray taught:

Quote
A. Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son - who is the 'Firstborn'.
B. The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created.

This is not what Ray taught and you should know that by now George.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Word did the creating by the power of the Heavenly Father.

Ray has said more than once that Jesus was created. The 'Firstborn.'

Unless I am missing something, I have stated what you have stated.

Warmest Regards.

George

Not really George.

Rotherham:
Joh 1:1  Originally, was, the Word, and, the Word, was, with God; and, the Word, was, God.
Joh 1:2  The same, was originally, with God.
Joh 1:3  All things, through him, came into existence, and, without him, came into existence, not even one thing: that which hath come into existence,

You said "Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son" which is not the same thing as Jesus making all things as shown. The Father gave Jesus the power to do the creating. It may seem petty, but it could be significant. And as Ray liked to say "you've got to pay attention to the words."

You said "The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created." which is not what Ray teaches. Ray teaches Jesus was created.



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cheekie3

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Re: John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2017, 06:33:19 PM »

Dennis -

Thank you for the clarification:

Dennis -

Thank you for confirming what Ray taught:

Quote
A. Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son - who is the 'Firstborn'.
B. The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created.

This is not what Ray taught and you should know that by now George.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Word did the creating by the power of the Heavenly Father.

Ray has said more than once that Jesus was created. The 'Firstborn.'

Unless I am missing something, I have stated what you have stated.

Warmest Regards.

George

Not really George.

Rotherham:
Joh 1:1  Originally, was, the Word, and, the Word, was, with God; and, the Word, was, God.
Joh 1:2  The same, was originally, with God.
Joh 1:3  All things, through him, came into existence, and, without him, came into existence, not even one thing: that which hath come into existence,

You said "Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son" which is not the same thing as Jesus making all things as shown. The Father gave Jesus the power to do the creating. It may seem petty, but it could be significant. And as Ray liked to say "you've got to pay attention to the words."

You said "The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created." which is not what Ray teaches. Ray teaches Jesus was created.

A little clarification on my part:

1. I did not say that I believed that The Son was not Created - I said that some on this Forum believe that The Son always existed with The father - hence not Created.

2. I said that Ray taught that God's First Creation was The Only Begotten Son - and that it was The Father in The Son doing the works that Jesus did. Jesus Himself said this in The New Testament on more than one occasion.

Did Jesus Himself not testify that the works that He does are His Father's Works, and it is The Father in Him, that is doing His Works:

John 10:32 (KJV):
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

John 14:10 (Amplified Bible):
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you I do not say on My own initiative or authority, but the Father, abiding continually in Me, does His works [His attesting miracles and acts of power].

John 14:10 (KJV):
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

To me at least, this is the bottom line - Is it possible for The Son to do all these Mighty Works of Creation, if His Father was not in Him? If you take The Father out of The Son, can The Son still do His Mighty Works?

I believe we all agree that 'The Father has Chosen His Beloved Son to do His Mighty Works'.

Warmest Regards.

George
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2017, 08:53:57 PM »

George:

1.  Let's let the links you posted allow Ray to speak for himself.
2.  There is no end of scripture that speaks to these things.  We cannot cherry-pick our way to understanding, and they do not contradict (especially when rightly translated).
3.  Try not to interpret what "other members" of this forum do or do not believe.  Firstly, everybody who IS is working this out over time.  Secondly, nobody who is working this out over time is capable of explaining things.
4.  You're welcome to your understanding, but asking for "correction" is not helpful.  We can "point to" what Ray taught, but we cannot "correct" every theory unless and until we all understand all the terms.  And we don't.
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cheekie3

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Re: John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2017, 03:36:50 AM »

Dave -

Thank you for your input on this, as I always appreciate your unique insight into these things, whereby, Peter said 'some things are hard to understand' ; and please note my responses below, for your consideration:

George:

1.  Let's let the links you posted allow Ray to speak for himself. George: Is that not what I have done, by referencing what Ray taught in his papers, and providing appropriate segments for clarification?
2.  There is no end of scripture that speaks to these things.  We cannot cherry-pick our way to understanding, and they do not contradict (especially when rightly translated). George: I know full well that The Holy Scriptures do not contradict; and it is very dangerous to cherry pick - that is where all the false Doctrines stem from. I do not comprehend what you mean by 'There is no end of scripture that speaks to these things'.
3.  Try not to interpret what "other members" of this forum do or do not believe.  Firstly, everybody who IS is working this out over time.  Secondly, nobody who is working this out over time is capable of explaining things. George: I am not trying to interpret anything, as we all know full well that The Holy Scriptures provide all the answers we need. With regards to others views, I was merely summarising what these were, based on numerous previous threads and posts, which you contributed to.
4.  You're welcome to your understanding, but asking for "correction" is not helpful.  We can "point to" what Ray taught, but we cannot "correct" every theory unless and until we all understand all the terms.  And we don't. George: My understanding is that within The Holy Scriptures, as I am not interested in my opinions, and I do not recollect asking for correction of anything - unless you are making a reference to the Scriptures about 'correcting those that contradict', which is what Ray's teachings are all about, are they not?

Warmest Regards.

George
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Re: John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2017, 04:19:55 AM »

You said: 

I believe most of us on this forum agree with one of the following:

A. Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son - who is the 'Firstborn'.
B. The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created.


A:  Dennis addressed this.

B.  I don't know of anybody who believes this the way you've put it....unless they are in general disagreement with Ray on the subject.  Ray said it was axiomatic that without "Son" there is no "Father".  Do you think I can explain that as opposed to the way you put it, in a forum post?  "The way you've put it" is why I made my points.  No boxes. 

I appreciate the fact that you've posted links and pieces of the articles.  I would rather you didn't "summarize".  Not on this topic.  It gets us nowhere. 
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 04:33:38 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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cheekie3

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Re: John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2017, 07:18:46 AM »

Dave -

Thank you for your response:

You said: 

I believe most of us on this forum agree with one of the following:

A. Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son - who is the 'Firstborn'.
B. The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created.


A:  Dennis addressed this.

B.  I don't know of anybody who believes this the way you've put it....unless they are in general disagreement with Ray on the subject.  Ray said it was axiomatic that without "Son" there is no "Father".  Do you think I can explain that as opposed to the way you put it, in a forum post?  "The way you've put it" is why I made my points.  No boxes. 

I appreciate the fact that you've posted links and pieces of the articles.  I would rather you didn't "summarize".  Not on this topic.  It gets us nowhere.

Duly noted and accepted.

Warmest Regards.

George
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The Acts of The Apostles 1:8 (NIBEV) "But you shall receive power when His Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

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Re: John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2017, 10:09:36 AM »

Just to clarify how I read it George. When you say "I believe most of us on this forum agree with one of the following:" 

The word "us" is inclusive of yourself which in my mind means you agree with the "us" on this forum.
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largeli

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Re: John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2017, 10:31:24 AM »

Why state what "most of us" believe anyway? What percentage of forum members regularly post on here? I wonder how many forum members do not have any opinion or concern about this topic at all? Man it really leaves a "churchy" feeling when people start speaking for others.

In the passage posted in the original post you included brackets with interpretations. False doctrines come in, not just when we cherry pick verses, but when we let others interpret scripture for us. And false doctrines thrive when we use "most of us believe" as proof of something being true.

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Re: John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2017, 11:17:48 AM »

George said:

To me at least, this is the bottom line - Is it possible for The Son to do all these Mighty Works of Creation, if His Father was not in Him? If you take The Father out of The Son, can The Son still do His Mighty Works?

I believe we all agree that 'The Father has Chosen His Beloved Son to do His Mighty Works'.


What you say here is true and this may be nitpicking. But when you said the Father did the creating that was a false statement and we have a duty to correct anything that is not true even if it seems small and inconsequential at the time. Sometimes a doctrine can take a different direction and lead to a false conclusion because of a tiny detour.
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cheekie3

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Re: John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2017, 11:45:51 AM »

Dennis -

Regarding clarification:

Just to clarify how I read it George. When you say "I believe most of us on this forum agree with one of the following:" 

The word "us" is inclusive of yourself which in my mind means you agree with the "us" on this forum.

You are referring to the below:

I believe most of us on this forum agree with one of the following:

A. Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son - who is the 'Firstborn'.
B. The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created.


What I mean by the above is that I understand from previous Posts on this subject, that there are some on the Forum which believe either A or B - and perhaps, I should not have used the term 'most' - and I believe The Holy Scriptures confirm A.

Warmest Regards.

George
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The Acts of The Apostles 1:8 (NIBEV) "But you shall receive power when His Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

cheekie3

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Re: John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2017, 11:47:44 AM »

largeli -

Thank you for pointing these things out:

Why state what "most of us" believe anyway? What percentage of forum members regularly post on here? I wonder how many forum members do not have any opinion or concern about this topic at all? Man it really leaves a "churchy" feeling when people start speaking for others.

In the passage posted in the original post you included brackets with interpretations. False doctrines come in, not just when we cherry pick verses, but when we let others interpret scripture for us. And false doctrines thrive when we use "most of us believe" as proof of something being true.

I stand corrected.

Warmest Regards.

George
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The Acts of The Apostles 1:8 (NIBEV) "But you shall receive power when His Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

cheekie3

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Re: John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2017, 11:49:24 AM »

Dennis -

Thank you for pointing this out:

George said:

To me at least, this is the bottom line - Is it possible for The Son to do all these Mighty Works of Creation, if His Father was not in Him? If you take The Father out of The Son, can The Son still do His Mighty Works?

I believe we all agree that 'The Father has Chosen His Beloved Son to do His Mighty Works'.


What you say here is true and this may be nitpicking. But when you said the Father did the creating that was a false statement and we have a duty to correct anything that is not true even if it seems small and inconsequential at the time. Sometimes a doctrine can take a different direction and lead to a false conclusion because of a tiny detour.

Much appreciated, and accepted.

Warmest Regards.

George
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The Acts of The Apostles 1:8 (NIBEV) "But you shall receive power when His Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

cheekie3

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Re: John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2017, 02:55:14 PM »

All -

Reposted without the square bracket wording:

I love this passage of The New Testament Scriptures, as it is full of the riches of His Wisdom:

John 8: 12-59: Amplified Bible (AMP)

12 Once more Jesus addressed the crowd. He said, “I am the Light of the world. He who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.” 13 Then the Pharisees told Him, “You are testifying on Your own behalf; Your testimony is not valid.” 14 Jesus replied, “Even if I do testify on My own behalf, My testimony is valid, because I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge according to human standards. I do not judge anyone. 16 But even if I do judge, My judgment is true and My decision is right; for I am not alone, but I and the Father who sent Me. 17 Even in your own law it is written that the testimony of two persons is true. 18 I am One who testifies about Myself, and My Father who sent Me testifies about Me.” 19 Then the Pharisees said to Him, “Where is this Father of Yours?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.” 20 Jesus said these things in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one seized Him, because His time had not yet come.

21 Then He said again to them, “I am going away, and you will look for Me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come.” 22 So the Jews were asking, “Will He kill Himself? Is that why He says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” 23 He said to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 That is why I told you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am the One, you will die in your sins.” 25 So they said to Him, “Who are You?” Jesus replied, “What have I been saying to you from the beginning? 26 I have many things to say and judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I say to the world the things that I have heard from Him.” 27 They did not realize that He was speaking to them about the Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, you will know then that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own authority, but I say these things just as My Father taught Me. 29 And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, because I always do what pleases Him.” 30 As He said these things, many believed in Him.

31 So Jesus was saying to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you abide in My word you are truly My disciples. 32 And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been enslaved to anyone. What do You mean by saying, ‘You will be set free’?”

34 Jesus answered, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, everyone who practices sin habitually is a slave of sin. 35 Now the slave does not remain in a household forever; the son does remain forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, then you are unquestionably free. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you plan to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I tell the things that I have seen at My Father’s side; so you also do the things that you heard from your father.”

39 They answered, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, then do the works of Abraham and follow his example. 40 But as it is, you want to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God. This is not the way Abraham acted. 41 You are doing the works of your father.” They said to Him, “We are not illegitimate children; we have one Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love and recognize Me, for I came from God and have arrived here. For I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you misunderstand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and it is your will to practice the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks what is natural to him, for he is a liar and the father of lies and half-truths. 45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 Whoever is of God and belongs to Him hears God’s words; for this reason you do not hear them: because you are not of God and you are not in fellowship with Him.”

48 The Jews answered Him, “Are we not right when we say You are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon. On the contrary, I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 However, I am not seeking glory for Myself. There is One who seeks and judges. 51 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will indeed never, ever see and experience death.” 52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and also the prophets; yet You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never, ever taste of death.’ 53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too! Whom do You make Yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing. It is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55 Yet you do not know Him, but I know Him fully. If I said I did not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day (My incarnation). He saw it and was delighted.” 57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not even fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus replied, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus concealed Himself and left the temple.

Warmest Regards.

George
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The Acts of The Apostles 1:8 (NIBEV) "But you shall receive power when His Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

santgem

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Re: John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2017, 07:32:30 AM »


Many are called but few are chosen...... Yes is true!

When there is only God;

Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.  Isa 43:10

I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior.  Isa 43:11

...I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.  Isa 44:6

...Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.  Isa 44:8

...I am the LORD, Who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.  Isa 44:24

I am the LORD, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.  Isa 45:5

That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.  Isa 45:6

I am the LORD, and there is no other.  Isa 45:18

And there is no God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.  Isa 45:21

For I am God, and there is no other.  Isa 45:22


When God had a Son which is God;

Psalm 22. I was thrust into your arms at my birth. You have been my God from the moment I was born.

Jer 32:27Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?

Gal 4:4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2017, 10:49:26 AM »

When God had a Son which is God;

Psalm 22. I was thrust into your arms at my birth. You have been my God from the moment I was born.


Psalm 22 ? what?

What is the point here Santem? Are you saying Psalm 22:? is talking about The Father and the Son?
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