Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Dave in Tenn]

now, or will Jesus wait until the next age to teach this to His Elect?

Brother, it does not appear what we shall be, but we know that when He appears, we shall be like him.  For we shall see Him as He is.

[Dave in Tenn]

Just tell me what word you prefer in place of individual and I'll use it Dave.

I've answered for myself.  Father, and Son. 

I won't bother you about your choice of words any more.  They are all equally lacking for the task.  Though "Dude" and "Feller" may be a bit sacrilegious.   

[Rene]

As we contemplate this topic, let's not forget that scripture confirms that Jesus also has a God:

Ephesian 1:3 - Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies, in Christ,

1Peter 1:3 - Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who, according to his great mercy, hath regenerated us unto a living hope, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from among the dead,

1Cor 15:23-24 -But each in his own rank: A firstfruit, Christ, after that, they who are the Christ's in his presence. Afterwards, the end—whensoever he delivereth up the kingdom unto his God and Father, whensoever he shall bring to nought all rule and all authority and power;

(Rotherham)

[Musterseed]

1 Corth:24...Then comes the end, when He delivers the Kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule,every authority and power.25, For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.26, The last enemy to be destroyed is death.27, for God has put all things
In subjection under His feet.But when it says all things are put in subjection, it is plain that He is excepted who put all things in subjection under Him.28,When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to Him who put all things in subjection under Him, that God may be All in All.

Can someone explain this scripture to me please. I understand up to vs.27 and then my brain blew up.😳 Thank you.
Glory be to Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Glory

[Dave in Tenn]

One last, and then I'll stop.

Dave said "He IS unapproachable" but Jesus is the intermediary and approachable. Doesn't that make the point that they are not one-and-the-same?

What I said was "He IS unapproachable in the brightness of His Glory."  That part was playing fast and loose with Scripture.  I was "quoting" something I thought I might have remembered reading.  I was wrong.   

   

[Joel]

The way I see it, EVERYONE gets in trouble trying to explain the Godhead beyond what the scriptures say.

Joel

[santgem]

Nobody had heard the  voice of God the Father in any point in time, even now.

If, "I am the LORD" [YHWH-Jehovah/I AM/WORD] is Jesus and he said these things;


Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.  Isa 43:10

I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior.  Isa 43:11

...I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.  Isa 44:6

...Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.  Isa 44:8

...I am the LORD, Who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.  Isa 44:24

I am the LORD, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.  Isa 45:5
Isa 45:6, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:22 and many others

then why many of us here said that "Jesus was created".


Is the two or three scriptures still questionable?
 
Jesus had a Father and God When he was born with a virgin.
Jer 32:27Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?
When Jesus had a flesh he had God, when at that point in time Yahweh/Jehovah/Jesus is speaking to the patriarchs He is the only God.

[Stacey]

I hope this thread doesn’t get locked or put away before good answers to the questions are figured out. Wouldnt it be fantastic to know we can look right here for understanding about the Father and the Son?

Santgem, Isaiah 43:10 states He was formed. The Lord God of the Old Testament says He was formed.

Who formed Him? Someone other than Himself?

As far as I know, the Lord God of the Old Testament never claimed to be the Father.

Now I should go back to my quiet safe place but,

Was it not The Lord God of the Old Testament who became our Savior Jesus Christ?

[santgem]

I hope this thread doesn’t get locked or put away before good answers to the questions are figured out. Wouldnt it be fantastic to know we can look right here for understanding about the Father and the Son?

Santgem, Isaiah 43:10 states He was formed. The Lord God of the Old Testament says He was formed.

Who formed Him? Someone other than Himself?

As far as I know, the Lord God of the Old Testament never claimed to be the Father.

Now I should go back to my quiet safe place but,

Was it not The Lord God of the Old Testament who became our Savior Jesus Christ?


Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. KJV - Isa 43:10

“You are My witnesses,” says the LORD,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.NKJV

But you are my witnesses, O Israel!” says the LORD.
“You are my servant.
You have been chosen to know me, believe in me,
and understand that I alone am God.
There is no other God—
there never has been, and there never will be.NLT

“You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.NIV

“You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor shall there be any after me.ESV

“You are my witnesses” —

this is the Lord’s declaration —

“and my servant whom I have chosen,

so that you may know and believe me

and understand that I am he.

No god was formed before me,

and there will be none after me.CSB

“You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
So that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.NASB


You are my witnesses," says the LORD, "my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may consider and believe in me, and understand that I am he. No god was formed before me, and none will outlive me.NET


"You are my witnesses," says the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.RSV

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.ASV


Ye are My witnesses, an affirmation of Jehovah, And My servant whom I have chosen, So that ye know and give credence to Me, And understand that I am He, Before Me there was no God formed, And after Me there is none.YLT

1.  Jesus is preordained
2.  Jesus is already the Saviour before the foundation of the world
3.  The Three scriptures below comparatively connected to Jesus


Psalm 22. I was thrust into your arms at my birth. You have been my God from the moment I was born.

Jer 32:27Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?

Gal 4:4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.


God the Father and Jesus shared the same glory.

Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

[Dennis Vogel]

Jesus was sent:

Joh 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

And who is the greater?

Joh_13:16  Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.


We are told many times there is one God and there is no denying that. But you have to reconcile the fact that Jesus has a God and that God is the one God. God the Father has no god, so they are different.

Joh 20:17  Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

2Co 1:3  Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of pities and God of all consolation,

1Pe 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who, according to His vast mercy, regenerates us into a living expectation, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from among the dead,

Rev 3:12  Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


As the Mediator Jesus is called a man:

1Ti 2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

(Notice one God and [in addition] one mediator)

But God the Father is not a man:

Num 23:19  God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Job 9:32  For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.

1Sa 15:29  And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.


Did God the Father have to learn obedience?

Heb 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Jesus was not disobedient as a man on this earth (if you disagree show me where). He learned obedience before coming to this earth. See https://youtu.be/086Vs1YfaEo


Why would Jesus have to turn anything over to God the Father if they are one-and-the-same?

1Co 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


Saying Jesus always existed smacks of the trinity.

And as Stacey said "Isaiah 43:10 states He was formed."

Isa 43:10  Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

I suggest you listen to Ray's last bible study: https://youtu.be/v-2Wq72GmqY


I have other items on a list and it seems there is a never ending supply of verses showing God the Father and Jesus are not one-and-the-same. This is not some nebulous theory. But I will continue if need be.

[santgem]

God the Father and Jesus are not one-and-the-same, When?

1.  When Jesus is the Yahweh/Jehovah/I AM/WORD
2.   When Jesus was born of a virgin

so my question  is when they are not one - and- the- same, in number 1 or number 2?

of course, i prefer no.2

[Dennis Vogel]

When you are 'begotten' you come into existence. John 1:18:

(ASV)  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

(CLV)  God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten God, Who is in the bosom of the Father, He unfolds Him."

(Diaglott-NT)  God no one has seen ever; the only-begotten son, that being in the bosom of the Father, he has made known.

(KJV)  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

(Rotherham)  No one, hath seen, God, at any time: An Only Begotten God, The One existing within the bosom of the Father, He, hath interpreted him .

(YLT)  God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father--he did declare.

[cheekie3]

santgem -

Regarding your statement below - that The Father and The Son were not the same, only when The Son was born of a virgin:

God the Father and Jesus are not one-and-the-same, When?

1.  When Jesus is the Yahweh/Jehovah/I AM/WORD
2.   When Jesus was born of a virgin

so my question  is when they are not one - and- the- same, in number 1 or number 2?

of course, i prefer no.2

For clarity, please confirm if you are stating that as of now, 'The Father and The Son' are one and the same.

Warmest Regards.

George

[santgem]

santgem -

Regarding your statement below - that The Father and The Son were not the same, only when The Son was born of a virgin:

God the Father and Jesus are not one-and-the-same, When?

1.  When Jesus is the Yahweh/Jehovah/I AM/WORD
2.   When Jesus was born of a virgin

so my question  is when they are not one - and- the- same, in number 1 or number 2?

of course, i prefer no.2

For clarity, please confirm if you are stating that as of now, 'The Father and The Son' are one and the same.

Warmest Regards.

George

Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.  Isa 43:10

(Num. 12:6-8) – “He said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision.  I shall speak with him in a dream. 7 "Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8 With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses ?"

and I have turned aside My hands, and thou hast seen My back parts, and My face is not seen.' Exo 33:23


There are hundreds of Scriptures that says there is only one God and there is no God besides Him.There are also Scriptures that says Jesus and the Father are One, and the fulness of the Godhead  bodily dwelleth in Jesus.

A voice is crying -- in a wilderness -- Prepare ye the way of Jehovah, Make straight in a desert a highway to our God. Isa. 40:3  'A voice of one calling in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, straight make ye his paths,' –Mark 1:3

'Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah; Deuteronomy 6:4

"But Jesus answered them, 'My Father is working until now, and I work.' So then, on account of this saying, the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, not only because He had loosed the Sabbath, but also because He had called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." (John 5:17-18)

"I and My Father are ONE" John 10:30

1Ti 3:16"........God was manifest in the flesh...

Col 2:9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.


so what's next? It is through, through and nothing but through Jesus that we will hear, communicate, feel, love, touch, sing , see God the Father. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face 

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Jhn 14:9

And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. Rev 22:4

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 1Co 13:12

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1Jo 3:2

As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness. Psa 17:15


For clarity, please confirm if you are stating that as of now, 'The Father and The Son' are one and the same

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1Ti 2:5

They are One God, i repeat When Jesus is (Yahweh-Jehovah/I AM/WORD/LORD) they are one and the same; As of Now, they are  Father and Son and they are One God.

[cheekie3]

Pamela -

1 Corth:24...Then comes the end, when He delivers the Kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule,every authority and power.25, For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.26, The last enemy to be destroyed is death.27, for God has put all things
In subjection under His feet.But when it says all things are put in subjection, it is plain that He is excepted who put all things in subjection under Him.28,When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to Him who put all things in subjection under Him, that God may be All in All.

Can someone explain this scripture to me please. I understand up to vs.27 and then my brain blew up.😳 Thank you.
Glory be to Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Glory

Regarding verse 28 of 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, I understand that these verses reference Psalm 110:1 and Psalm 8:6:


Psalm 110:1 Modern English Version (MEV):

The Lord said to my lord, “Sit at My right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”


Psalm 8:6 Modern English Version (MEV):

You have given him dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet,


Please note the below, Phillips, NIBEV, ICB, GW and EXB versions:


1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Phillips:

24-27 Then, and not till then, authority and power, hands over the kingdom to God the Father. Christ’s reign will and must continue until every enemy has been conquered. The last enemy of all to be destroyed is death itself. The scripture says: ‘He has put all things under his feet’. But in the term “all things” it is quite obvious that God, who brings them all under subjection to Christ, is himself excepted.

28 Nevertheless, when everything created has been made obedient to God, then shall the Son acknowledge himself subject to God the Father, who gave the Son power over all things. Thus, in the end, shall God be wholly and absolutely God.


1 Corinthians 15:24-28 NIBEV:

15:24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to Yahweh the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
15:25 For the Messiah must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 15:26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
15:27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that Yahweh who put all things under Yah’shua is excepted.

15:28 Now when all things are made subject to Yahweh, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that Yahweh may be all in all.


1 Corinthians 15:24-28 International Children’s Bible (ICB):

24 Then the end will come. Christ will destroy all rulers, authorities, and powers. And he will give the kingdom to God the Father. 25 Christ must rule until God puts all enemies under Christ’s control. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed will be death. 27 The Scripture says, “God put all things under his control.”[a] When it says that “all things” are put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself. God is the one putting everything under Christ’s control.

28 After everything has been put under Christ, then the Son himself will be put under God. God is the One who put all things under Christ. And Christ will be put under God, so that God will be the complete ruler over everything.


1 Corinthians 15:24-28 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW):

24 Then the end will come. Christ will hand over the kingdom to God the Father as he destroys every ruler, authority, and power.

25 Christ must rule until God has put every enemy under his control. 26 The last enemy he will destroy is death. 27 Clearly, God has put everything under Christ’s authority. When God says that everything has been put under Christ’s authority, this clearly excludes God, since God has put everything under Christ’s authority.

28 But when God puts everything under Christ’s authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, since God had put everything under the Son’s authority. Then God will be in control of everything.


1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Expanded Bible (EXB):

24 and then the end will come. At that time Christ will destroy all rulers, authorities, and powers, and he will hand over the kingdom to God the Father.
25 Christ must rule until he puts all enemies under his control; 
26 The last enemy to be destroyed will be death.
27 The Scripture says that God put all things under his control. When it says “all things” are under him, it is clear this does not include the One who put everything under his control.

28 After everything has been put under the Son, then he will put himself under God, who had put all things under him. Then God will be the complete ruler over everything.


Warmest Regards.

George

[Dennis Vogel]

I never said there was not one God and God and Jesus are not one, because we are told they are one.

But multiple individuals (beings, entities, or whatever word you choose) can also be one with God and Jesus.

John 17:11 

(ASV)  that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me.

(CLV)  that they may all be one, according as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us, that the world should be believing that Thou dost commission Me."

(Diaglott-NT)  That all one may be; as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee, that also they in us one may be; that the world may believe, that thou me didst send.

(KJV)  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

(Rotherham)  That they, all, may be, one,—even as, thou, Father, in me, and, I, in thee,—that, they also, in us, may be;—that, the world, may believe that, thou, didst send me forth.

(YLT)  that they all may be one, as Thou Father art in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me.

"As Thou" (as You) is someone speaking to someone else.

And much of what George posted confirms that God and Jesus are not one-and-the-same.

[Dave in Tenn]

I never said there was not one God and God and Jesus are not one, because we are told they are one.

Dennis, this is more than mere semantics.  Where in the New Testament are we told that "God and Jesus" are one?  I don't know of a place.  We're told, by Jesus Christ, that He and the Father are one.  I think that's an important distinction, but not "the answer" by itself.  If anyone assumes any and/or every mention of "God" "Theos" in the NT refers solely to the Father, that's an unfounded assumption.  That is also playing fast and loose with Scripture.


 

 

[Dennis Vogel]

I'm trying to understand but not getting anywhere.

If Jesus and God are absolutely one-and-the-same did Jesus actually die (dead as dead can be)? Seriously, please tell me, how did that work?

And then there is everything else I've posted (like God is not a man but Jesus is a man), and much more I have not posted. I don't get it.

It makes more sense to believe they share the same spirit (so to speak) because Jesus knows His Father thru and thru but they are not one-and-the-same being. They are Father and Son.


Joh 14:9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Jesus says if you have seen me you have seen the Father. But does anyone believe God the Father looks like a 33 year old Jew? He is not talking about the outward appearance. It's not literally applicable:

Exo 33:20  And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

He that hath seen me hath seen the Father is symbolic as are many topics in the bible.

Again, watch this video: https://youtu.be/v-2Wq72GmqY

Having a God that was tempted in every way and suffered greatly as someone I can identify with and knows first hand what we are going thru makes sense. This is why He pleads our case before the Father who did not have to learn obedience.

[Joel]

John 1:1-5 makes it pretty clear to me.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning WITH God. All things were made by HIM; and without HIM was not any thing made that was made.
In HIM was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

The way I see it, THE SPIRIT, and THE WORD are God, the ONE GOD, THE FATHER, and THE SON.

Joel

[Dave in Tenn]

It's a cool video.  I like the first few minutes best.  That's honest struggle, and consideration of scripture, and open-mindedness.  I would have enjoyed being there, and I HAVE been in "that chair" in my own "room".  (I would have loved to have chimed in at about the 30:00 mark when they were talking about how did Paul knew Col. 2:9?  From the Old Testament? 

Yeah, I think so.

But I stopped coming at things from trying to understand every related verse, and all the possible permutations of translation, and whether or not this verse was symbolic and the one that seemed to contradict it was "literal".  And trying to consider mightily HUGE topics like "eternal" and on and on and on.  I reckoned, "Dave, if you can't understand the simpler things, how are you going to understand the larger things?  If you don't understand physical things, how are you going to understand spiritual things they represent?"

So I considered the one parable He gave to me, and to all mankind (if they read and believe).
Gen 1:26  And saying is the Elohim, "Make will We humanity in Our image, and according to Our likeness:
Gen 2:7  And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (Spirit) of life; and Man became a living soul.

And to simplify it further for a poor country boy, "..Jehovah Elohim formed...a living soul...in likeness and image."

I am formed a living Soul, a walking, talking parable of the One God.  He's "Father" and "Son".  I'm spirit and Me.

That's my way in.

From there I re-meditated.  "What is a living soul?"  Ray covered that.  I am a living soul.  "Who or what is Jehovah Elohim?"  Ray covered that.  He's GOD.  What is God?  Among other things, God is Love, and God is Spirit.  What else is Spirit?  "The words I speak to you are Spirit and they are life." 

So what words did Jesus say about the Father and the Son?  I looked them up.  And I read them "spiritually".  And I believed them "spiritually".

I am similar to/like "Father" and "Son".

A couple of examples?

"If you have seen me, you have seen the Father".  I'm like that.  If you observe me (from the outside, which is all you CAN do) long enough (Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?) you'd know ME a lot more. 

"The Servant is not greater than the master."  The living soul I am is not greater than the Spirit that gives me life.  Without it, I'm just a well-designed hunk of meat.  With it, I'm able to walk, talk, think, feel, and consider my own existence, and the nature of God.

"If I am not doing My Father's works, do not believe Me."  It is the spirit in ME that determines the works *I" do.  Demo?  "A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things...".  That's the way we "living souls" work!  At least that's the way THIS one does.  Some may think they choose what they dip out with their free-will.



Enough to at least be understood?

God is One.  I am one, though "spirit" and "soul" are not one-and-the-same.  One comes first, the other immediately (apparently), and inexorably follows.

There is none beside Him.  There is none beside ME that is ME.

He formed Man in His image (form), and we are what we are because of what HE is in form.  Not a 6'4" invisible Tennessee Feller and Feller Junior, but Spirit and Soul.

Col 2:8,9  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.  I'm LIKE that, though I'm NOT that.  Yet all the fulness of spirit and soul "dwells' in MY body, for that's all I am.  That's the whole enchilada.

(Theology is a branch of Philosophy  http://factmyth.com/the-branches-of-philosophy-overview/).

The only time Jesus can possibly be referred to as a "person" was from the time He was begotten of Mary and Holy Spirit till the time He died on the Cross.  Before, He was ONE GOD.  After, He is ONE GOD.  And during, He was ONE GOD.

Santgem, it doesn't trouble me, with this understanding, that people say "The Son was created, and/or formed".  Can you see why not?