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[octoberose]

As long as I've been in this Forum ( I think I'm at 8 years to the day) the question of who Jesus Christ truly is has been a hallmark of Faith. How many times have I read if you don't understand that Jesus died, was dead and buried not in heaven or hanging out with Noah, but Dead- that his body did not die for us but He died for us- then you really don't know who you claim to worship? I'm not sure I understand why the debate . There are many times in scripture where the Word condescends to us because we just don't get it and He cannot yet explain it to us. For instance, God never changes His mind but there are scriptures that lead us to believe that.  This is what I know. Jesus asked Peter who He was and Peter answered .  We all have to answer that question and it is important for us to get this right.
  Matthew 13-  He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
 As for me, there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Son and he represents his Father perfectly.

[santgem]

John 1:1-5 makes it pretty clear to me.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning WITH God. All things were made by HIM; and without HIM was not any thing made that was made.
In HIM was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

The way I see it, THE SPIRIT, and THE WORD are God, the ONE GOD, THE FATHER, and THE SON.

Joel

Before and After

[santgem]

Santgem, it doesn't trouble me, with this understanding, that people say "The Son was created, and/or formed".  Can you see why not?     
 

Yes i can see that, It is your point of view.

Scriptures says that "In the beginning was the WORD". Is the WORD created? I did not  read or didn't know that the WORD was created, Scriptures  says that "WORD was with GOD".

The Word was made flesh, and who made Word flesh? It is God.

Before it is only the SPIRIT and the WORD, and when the Word was made flesh the SPIRIT became the Father and the Word became Son.

The WORD who became the SON in old said that, He is the only God (no God besides Him), the only Savior,  the only Creature.

I must admit that I cannot find a word to replace the word “create” when it comes to Jesus who is the only God when we are speaking of old and who is the “Man Jesus”. I believe the word “create” is a wrong choice of word pertaining to Man Jesus.

As I presume you use the word create because Jesus was made lower than the angel and He is not in his original state.

[Dennis Vogel]

I don't see any of this making God and His Father one-and-the-same being. And I still do not see how Jesus died if they are the same.

This occurred to me this morning:

Mat 22:44  The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Ray said in: https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php?topic=4472.0
So you’ve got, Jehovah said to my Adon, in the NT that becomes, God said to My Son Jesus. Because now we have who fulfilled this. I mean David did put his foot on a lot of his enemies, but not all. When he died he still had enemies. That’s why he told his son to kill them and make it bloody.

1Co 15:25  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.


And after also talking about Mat 22:44, Ray said in: https://bible-truths.com/audio/notes.htm

Jesus is both SON AND LORD.

And so Jehovah/Yahweh prophesied of HIS OWN COMING IN THE FLESH to be the Son of God to have all enemies put under His feet. But if Jehovah is the Son OF God, Who IS GOD? And where do we read ANYTHING about Him? Do we know of a single word that came out of the Mouth of God the Father? How can we love Him if we don’t even KNOW Him? Who is the Father and what is He like. Show me a verse in the Bible where the Father of Jesus Christ is speaking?

Here’s another riddle and enigma:

"Jesus said unto him, You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind" (Matt. 22:37).

WHO is this LORD God?

"Now these are the commandments…which the LORD your God commanded…And you shall love the LORD your God will all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might" (Deut. 6:1 & 5).

WHO is this LORD God?

Jesus QUOTED this commandment from the Old Testament. If Jesus is Jehovah Elohim when why didn’t He say: "you shall love ME with all your heart, soul and mind? (They would have stoned Him on the spot). Is there any doubt that Jesus has reference to "His FATHER God" when He quoted this greatest of the commandments? Then what about the Old Testament command? Who was THAT "Lord God/Jehovah Elohim" that Israel was to love with all their heart?

Search for "HOW DAVID’S THRONE BECOMES CHRIST’S THRONE:" in the above article if you want to read the rest.


This is the third time this topic has been brought up even after I've asked people to leave it alone from now on in PM's.

It's okay if we cannot agree on this. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But it serves no good purpose to go over it again and again. Can we at least agree to leave it alone after this? This leaves a bad taste in the mouth of people coming to this forum for the first time.

[Dennis Vogel]

The fact that the Word "became" / "was made" flesh by God proves the Word is not one-and-the-same as God the Father.

[Dave in Tenn]

For the record, I'm not suggesting that Father and Son are one-and-the-same.  I don't know what the alternative to that is, so how could I?  I'm saying only that Father and Son are ONE.  I think that statement is true, scriptural, and also what Ray taught.  Feel free to figure out the rest in any way that suits you.   

My "journey" in this has not been to explain the "enigma of God", but to understand it.  I just can't understand it theologically.  I came into it from Scripture, and as far as I know so far, it doesn't contradict scripture (spiritually discerned).  It does do a number on certain 'theological assumptions', but that usually makes me happy.   

At the same time, it doesn't "contradict" what Ray taught as far as I know.  Why "as far as I know"?  Because Ray himself was grappling with these things toward the end.  That video is documented evidence of that.  And what Ray taught earlier on is still true.  That Father and Son are One in Spirit is still true.  That the word "God" (Theos) is a "title" and not a name is still true.  The One who holds the title has a name.  That the God-head is "family" is still true, else why inspire the words Father, Son and Children at all?

It was Ray who taught me the basics of what "spirit" and "soul" meant, and who taught me when you body dies, soul goes to "the unseen" where there is no knowledge of anything.

Ecc 12:7  And the soil (body) returns to the earth just as it was, And the spirit, it returns to the One, Elohim, Who gave it."

-----------

And in conclusion   :

Jesus Christ as a Man had two parents.  Let's not forget that either.  Might be important.

[Dave in Tenn]

As long as I've been in this Forum ( I think I'm at 8 years to the day) the question of who Jesus Christ truly is has been a hallmark of Faith. How many times have I read if you don't understand that Jesus died, was dead and buried not in heaven or hanging out with Noah, but Dead- that his body did not die for us but He died for us- then you really don't know who you claim to worship? I'm not sure I understand why the debate . There are many times in scripture where the Word condescends to us because we just don't get it and He cannot yet explain it to us. For instance, God never changes His mind but there are scriptures that lead us to believe that.  This is what I know. Jesus asked Peter who He was and Peter answered .  We all have to answer that question and it is important for us to get this right.
  Matthew 13-  He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
 As for me, there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Son and he represents his Father perfectly.

"Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”  Amen.

“Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah (and Octoberose)! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.    Amen.

Let's also not forget the very most important time the Word condescended to us.  He humbled Himself and became a man, and was obedient--even to death--and not just any death, but the death on a cross.

He rose from the dead, too.  First.

I know Who I worship, and I know His Father through Him.

[Dennis Vogel]

For the record, I'm not suggesting that Father and Son are one-and-the-same.  I don't know what the alternative to that is, so how could I?  I'm saying only that Father and Son are ONE.  I think that statement is true, scriptural, and also what Ray taught.  Feel free to figure out the rest in any way that suits you.   

Then we are not divided Dave. I've always said God and His Son are one because that's what we are told.

John 17:11  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

[Musterseed]

What a lively debate. I believe the answers are in the Trinity Papers of Rays teaching. Peace and Love to all.

[Dave in Tenn]

No, we're not divided, Dennis.  How deep the "One-ness" is and in what form these things take, and how we think of these things in our own thoughts shouldn't be matters of contention, but of sharing.  It's the Spirit who reveals things.  Good fruit--some thirty, some sixty, some a-hundred-fold.

It's been a very valuable thread for me.  I think Joel's post about "getting in trouble" when we don't use Scriptural terms is very important.  I intend to endeavor to follow that when attempting to "quote Scripture" (the bible says), and we owe it to each other to press when someone doesn't.

Now, I need to get back to up-dating my resume' and resuming my job-search (though I'd rather have my wisdom teeth extracted).   

[John from Kentucky]

The Scriptures teach over and over that there is One God.

Paul wrote that there is One God consisting of the Father out of Whom are all things AND the Son by Whom are all things. One God, but two aspects, two functions, two jobs.  They are not one and the same.  They do different things.  But they are not separate.  Not separate minds.  Not separate personalities.

God can multi-task.  God is Magnificent.  The heaven and the heaven of heavens and beyond cannot contain Him.  God is unique and will be unique.  We will be his kin, members of His family, but we will not be Him.

Further proof of One God is Isa 9:6, which refers to Jesus..."For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given..."  In that Scripture Jesus is given two titles...."The Mighty God" and "The Everlasting Father".  If Jesus is God and Father, then what Jesus said is True, "I and the Father are One."

Jesus and the Father are not separate or there would be two Gods.  One God Who can do different things at the same time.

However, only God's Spirit can provide understanding of Who God is, which I do not think God is doing at this time.
Paul wrote "Not everyone knows this".  I believe from other Scriptures that Jesus will teach Who He and the Father is in the next age.

[Dave in Tenn]

It's been a very valuable thread for me.  I think Joel's post about "getting in trouble" when we don't use Scriptural terms is very important.  I intend to endeavor to follow that when attempting to "quote Scripture" (the bible says), and we owe it to each other to press when someone doesn't. 

On that point, let me say that scripture does NOT say "God and His Son" are One.  Is that a minor point?  Maybe, but maybe not.



I told ya, I'd rather have my wisdom teeth extracted than do what else I need to do.    

[Dennis Vogel]

Okay, this is a good place to end this topic. I'm going to lock it now.