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Author Topic: Which Scriptures have been the hardest for us to understand  (Read 21017 times)

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lareli

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Re: Which Scriptures have been the hardest for us to understand
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2017, 12:01:48 PM »

maybe the surviving Jews were not too enthusiastic about taking part in a census. You know.. considering the way the previous census had worked out for them under the Germans.. ?

Or maybe the many thousands of 1st person accounts are telling the truth:

Jewish Demographics In Warsaw

Year  - Number of Jews
1764 - 1,365
1800 - 9,724
1900 - 219,128
1940 - 393,500
1945 - 7,800


https://dbs.bh.org.il/place/poland

1st person accounts of what? That 6 million Jews were missing from the post WW2 census? No one (unless I'm misunderstanding George's comments) is disputing that Jews were rounded up into concentration camps and killed.

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John from Kentucky

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Re: Which Scriptures have been the hardest for us to understand
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2017, 01:28:04 PM »

It is shocking to see how ignorant and uneducated some Forum members are.

Brings to mind the Scripture that says not many wise are called.

I do not mind being persecuted for Scriptural Truths.

But being lumped together with really dumb members on non scriptural matters is hard to take.
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indianabob

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Re: Which Scriptures have been the hardest for us to understand
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2017, 02:58:43 PM »

I agree with your assessment John,
And I lump myself in that group.
But I am content knowing that my limitations will allow God
 to demonstrate what great things He can do with so little. Luke 18:27
ole Indiana bob
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Which Scriptures have been the hardest for us to understand
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2017, 03:07:22 PM »

Then where did all the Jews go? Just a handful went to Israel.
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lareli

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Re: Which Scriptures have been the hardest for us to understand
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2017, 03:32:10 PM »

"Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

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lareli

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Re: Which Scriptures have been the hardest for us to understand
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2017, 03:39:24 PM »

Then where did all the Jews go? Just a handful went to Israel.

Dennis who are you asking this question to? If you're asking me then why don't you point out something that I've said in this thread that you disagree with and we can go from there.

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octoberose

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Re: Which Scriptures have been the hardest for us to understand
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2017, 04:40:12 AM »

We lived in Germany for seven years. I've been to Dacheu and Buchenwald. But more importantly I have met a man named Max Manheimer who wore the tatto on his arm and lost his entire family in Dacheu .  What does it benefit anyone to doubt him?   To what end? 
  And George , you are " teaching " and you know it. Just say so. I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish .
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cheekie3

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Re: Which Scriptures have been the hardest for us to understand
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2017, 08:13:46 AM »

octoberose -

Noted and accepted.

We lived in Germany for seven years. I've been to Dacheu and Buchenwald. But more importantly I have met a man named Max Manheimer who wore the tatto on his arm and lost his entire family in Dacheu .  What does it benefit anyone to doubt him?   To what end? 
  And George , you are " teaching " and you know it. Just say so. I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish .

For, and on the record; I stated, that I no longer believe that gas chambers existed, for the reasons I mentioned, and I merely asked that we all do our own research, and draw our own conclusions.

I know the horrors of war, and multitudes suffered, and died, including millions of the Jewish People.

I did not mean to offend anyone, nor try to teach anything, and I am sorry for upsetting Forum Members.

Warmest Regards.

George
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Which Scriptures have been the hardest for us to understand
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2017, 11:34:20 AM »

octoberose -

Noted and accepted.

We lived in Germany for seven years. I've been to Dacheu and Buchenwald. But more importantly I have met a man named Max Manheimer who wore the tatto on his arm and lost his entire family in Dacheu .  What does it benefit anyone to doubt him?   To what end? 
  And George , you are " teaching " and you know it. Just say so. I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish .

For, and on the record; I stated, that I no longer believe that gas chambers existed, for the reasons I mentioned, and I merely asked that we all do our own research, and draw our own conclusions.

I know the horrors of war, and multitudes suffered, and died, including millions of the Jewish People.

I did not mean to offend anyone, nor try to teach anything, and I am sorry for upsetting Forum Members.

Warmest Regards.

George

New people come to this forum and see this bickering and are turned off and will never return.

George you've been constantly sorry for something for years - It's time for you to move on

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indianabob

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Re: Which Scriptures have been the hardest for us to understand
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2017, 11:34:47 AM »

Friend George,
I am meddling a little when I offer the following comments, but I think we can handle it.
I think that when opening a discussion regarding the Jews in Europe and now in Jerusalem that we are getting into a political area which the forum moderators wish to avoid, because of the potential for emotional responses. Keeping in mind the hundreds of new readers of the forum who may misunderstand and not return to learn.
It may be good to share truth from scripture with some folks who are not yet ready for enlightenment, but in the instance of political dialog there is no source authority that can be trusted the way inspired scripture should be.
= =
There are other forums in which political debate is welcome or reluctantly tolerated.
= =
The scriptures do lead us to believe that Jerusalem/Israel and its citizens will be in the news in a big way when our Lord returns and there is much speculation about how that will work and who it will affect, but our dialog is best limited to whatever Ray Smith has presented so that casual readers have a written, accessible resource for consideration.

Kindly offered, Indiana bob
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lareli

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Re: Which Scriptures have been the hardest for us to understand
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2017, 10:59:00 AM »

It is shocking to see how ignorant and uneducated some Forum members are.

Brings to mind the Scripture that says not many wise are called.

I do not mind being persecuted for Scriptural Truths.

But being lumped together with really dumb members on non scriptural matters is hard to take.

You concern yourself with the opinions of men.

Will we be judged as individuals? Or as a group.. “lumped together”?

Then why fret over the opinions of men, as to who they lump you together with?

1 Cor 4:3
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matt 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 02:58:53 PM by largeli »
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Which Scriptures have been the hardest for us to understand
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2017, 12:37:50 PM »

It is shocking to see how ignorant and uneducated some Forum members are.

Brings to mind the Scripture that says not many wise are called.

I do not mind being persecuted for Scriptural Truths.

But being lumped together with really dumb members on non scriptural matters is hard to take.

You concern yourself with the opinions of men.. as does all of the carnal church.

Will we be judged as individuals? Or as a group.. “lumped together”?

Then why fret over the opinions of men, as to who they lump you together with?

1 Cor 4:3
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matt 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Just remember this works both ways.
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John from Kentucky

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Re: Which Scriptures have been the hardest for us to understand
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2017, 04:29:21 PM »

It is shocking to see how ignorant and uneducated some Forum members are.

Brings to mind the Scripture that says not many wise are called.

I do not mind being persecuted for Scriptural Truths.

But being lumped together with really dumb members on non scriptural matters is hard to take.

You concern yourself with the opinions of men.

Will we be judged as individuals? Or as a group.. “lumped together”?

Then why fret over the opinions of men, as to who they lump you together with?

1 Cor 4:3
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matt 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.


Thanks for the sermon largeli.  That much preaching should last me for a while.  Maybe I can avoid Christians and Holocaust deniers for at least a year.
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lareli

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Re: Which Scriptures have been the hardest for us to understand
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2017, 08:18:13 PM »

Until this thread, I’d never actually doubted anything pertaining to the holocaust.. and I still have no reason to doubt anything that’s widely accepted in regards to the holocaust.

But, I have a love for truth and that makes me want to hear all sides of a claim. Can’t help it. The desire for truth compels me.

Keeping with the original topic of this thread..

Here’s a scripture Im having a hard time understanding,

2 Thes 2:10
 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


The love of the truth.

Is the truth spoken of in this verse, is it only scriptural truth or is it all truth.




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octoberose

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Re: Which Scriptures have been the hardest for us to understand
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2017, 02:54:11 AM »

Hi largely,
   I looked up 2 Thessalonians and read the chapter your verse came from. It seems to me, since Paul is speaking about the lawless one being revealed and Satan's works, and then goes to those who are perishing Because "they refuse to love the truth and be saved", and  then the clincher to me is verse 12 so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.-So, I'm thinking he's talking about a specific truth. But God's Truth is Truth so...
 I gotta tell you- I struggle with this. Thessalonians is not apocalyptic scripture the way Revelations is, but here he is talking about a man of lawlessness that sounds very much like a human being who is  not you or me who has yet to be revealed. And back in the day before I knew about God ultimately saving all, I would read that verse 10 "They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved" and think Free Will. I would not have known that Jesus came to seek and save the perishing and the saved he is talking about is the next aion, not a forever heaven.
 I looked this up in the search and nothing came up but I think we or Ray had spoken about it somewhere. 
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Which Scriptures have been the hardest for us to understand
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2017, 04:05:28 AM »

2Th 2:3  Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, because that Day will not come unless first comes the falling away, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
2Th 2:4  the one opposing and exalting himself over everything being called God, or object of worship, so as for him "to sit in the temple of God" as God, setting forth himself, that he is God. Dan. 11:36; Eze. 28:2
2Th 2:7  For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it comes out of the midst.
2Th 2:8  And then "the Lawless One" will be revealed, "whom" "the Lord" "will consume" "by the spirit of His mouth," and will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence. Isa. 11:4
2Th 2:9  His (the Lawless One) coming is according to the working of Satan in all power and miraculous signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10  and in all deceit of unrighteousness in those being lost, because they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved.
2Th 2:11  And because of this, God will send to them a working of error, for them to believe the lie,
2Th 2:12  that all may be judged, those not believing the truth, but who have delighted in unrighteousness.

Isa 11:1  And a Shoot goes out from the stump of Jesse, and a Branch will bear fruit out of his roots.
Isa 11:2  And the Spirit of Jehovah shall rest on Him; He will have the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and power, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah.
Isa 11:3  And He is made to breathe in the fear of Jehovah. But He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, nor decide by the hearing of His ears.
Isa 11:4  But He shall judge the poor in righteousness, and shall decide rightly for the meek of the earth. And He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, and He shall cause the wicked to die with the breath of His lip.

Yes, I think it is a quite specific (but broadly experienced) "truth" he is talking about here.  If the first few verses of  2 Thessalonians 2 do not now nor ever have applied to you, then I don't know what to think.  We don't live in the same spiritual universe.

2Th 2:9  His coming is according to the working of Satan in all power and miraculous signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10  and in all deceit of unrighteousness in those being lost, because they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved.

Where in there is the "receiving the love of the truth" contrasting anything other than those things that preceded that statement, "in order for them to be saved."?

I have thousands of curiosities, and things I don't know.  I have multiplied thousands of things I don't even KNOW I don't know.  Where in all of those is the "deceit of unrighteousness"?  Faulty opinions?  Haphazard history?  Color Blindness?  Do I really need a love of all that kind of "truth" in order to be saved?  Sure, its cool to learn new things--provided knowledge doesn't puff up--AND that the "new thing" is better than the old thing.  And I reckon I might can be "saved" from all manner of petty ignorance, but so what?!?!?!  Ye strain out a gnat and swallow a camel?


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ray on this verse and others like it.

https://bible-truths.com/lake14.html

Tell me what you think.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 03:50:28 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

John from Kentucky

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Re: Which Scriptures have been the hardest for us to understand
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2017, 12:41:50 PM »

Dave,

Yes Ray understood.  The Beast, the Man of Lawlessness, is each and everyone of us.  It is Jesus Who saves us by killing this Beast within us, then coming and living within our innermost being, our heart.

That is why we are not saved by our works, but by the Grace of God Who brings about the works of Jesus within us.

John
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lareli

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Re: Which Scriptures have been the hardest for us to understand
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2017, 03:38:52 PM »

I love truth and hate and despise every lie. My faulty opinions?? Well I do not hold very tightly to my opinions because I understand that opinions are not truth. I don’t care much for my own opinions and I don’t want to take them too seriously.

Haphazard history? I stand by what I said in my first comment in this thread. Knowing that history is written by mere men, It’s not ignorant to question any historical claim. History shapes our world view. I try not to hold too tightly to my worldview for this reason.

Color blindness? Funny, I am actually color blind to a degree. Colors are only perceptions.

Jesus is the truth. I want Jesus in every aspect of my life and worldview.

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Which Scriptures have been the hardest for us to understand
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2017, 04:02:24 PM »

I've seen people whose "love for the truth" led them directly into a pack of lies.  They'd have been better off ignorant, because now they think they see. 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

octoberose

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Re: Which Scriptures have been the hardest for us to understand
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2017, 01:22:21 AM »

I don't know of anyone who teaches what Ray does in this matter. That is said with amazement and trying to understand it- not criticism. I still don't understand how he came to it. I can read about John standing at the sea, hearing a voice behind him. 666 is the number of mankind, not a man. And the beast is me. I could have read those verses my whole life and not come to the understanding Ray did.  I hope I would have eventually  noticed a few things such as we will have  great tribulation not The Great Tribulation .
From the LOF-
"Let no man [ 'let not any person,' RSV, 'Let no ONE...'] deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a FALLING AWAY first, and that man of sin [Gk: the lawless one] be revealed, the son of perdition [Gk: the one destined for destruction] . Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God [a god] , or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God"
   Are we to come to the understanding that the verse above is how Everyone eventually will come to know Christ and come to bow before Him when they fall away from worshipping themselves? If so, that makes some kind of sense to me.


 

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