Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[John from Kentucky]

I don't know of anyone who teaches what Ray does in this matter. That is said with amazement and trying to understand it- not criticism. I still don't understand how he came to it. I can read about John standing at the sea, hearing a voice behind him. 666 is the number of mankind, not a man. And the beast is me. I could have read those verses my whole life and not come to the understanding Ray did.  I hope I would have eventually  noticed a few things such as we will have  great tribulation not The Great Tribulation .
From the LOF-
"Let no man [ 'let not any person,' RSV, 'Let no ONE...'] deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a FALLING AWAY first, and that man of sin [Gk: the lawless one] be revealed, the son of perdition [Gk: the one destined for destruction] . Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God [a god] , or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God"
   Are we to come to the understanding that the verse above is how Everyone eventually will come to know Christ and come to bow before Him when they fall away from worshipping themselves? If so, that makes some kind of sense to me.


 

Ray received his understanding from the Spirit of God as do the very few, the little flock who God wants to understand in this age.

God is not saving the Many at this time, but in the next age, when the Great King returns.

It is why Jesus taught in parables.  To keep the Many from understanding the Truth.  Their time has not yet come.

Those of us meant to understand, get it when we stand on the sand, and look back and see the Beast come out of the sea, and know we are the Beast because we have experienced this Truth in our lives.  Not reading it out of a book, but living it.

[Dave in Tenn]

2Th 2:11  And therefore God will be sending them an operation of deception, for them to believe the falsehood,
2Th 2:12  that all may be judged who do not believe the truth, but delight in injustice."

The two main teachings of Ray at B-T are the salvation of all (with the inherent injustice of eternal destruction), and the sovereignty of God (with the fallacy of free-will).  BOTH of those are in that passage.
 

Are we to come to the understanding that the verse above is how Everyone eventually will come to know Christ and come to bow before Him when they fall away from worshipping themselves? If so, that makes some kind of sense to me.

OURSELVES is just one of the things mankind will stop worshiping. 

Peter (and all the other disciples) forsook the Lord, Who they loved and Who loved them.  The prodigal son left the love of his father.

Paul wrote earlier:

2Th 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

That's what's hard for me to understand.  We can't preach the meat of the Gospel to those who think they are doing God a favor, and have Jesus as their personal pocket savior.  Ray said the carnal church has not yet experienced this falling away.  It's not that they haven't fallen, it's just that they don't know they've fallen.  Can you relate?  You start well perhaps, as a "baby christian", but before you know it you're corrupted.  And whether or not you end up in the pig-pen of the world, you're in the pig-pen of the worldly church, eating what you've been feeding.  Naked, without knowing you're naked.  Before long, you "do not believe the truth, but delight in injustice"--maybe even the injustice of eternal conscious torment.


Jesus came to save those who are LOST.  Some people seem to have only been religiously "lost" before they were religiously "saved".  They've got a hard, hard lesson to learn.  They won't learn it until they have left their first love and then repent--because you can't repent of something you haven't done.  That was Peter (and the others), Paul, the lost sheep, the prodigal son, Ray...  First, leave--later, Pentecost, with a death and resurrection in-between.

So for my part, what gospel I can "preach" is to those who HAVE experienced the "falling away".  Anything I can tell a carnal christian about it would just be turned into a religious exercise.  And it's not a "good thing"...it's an evil that He intends for good.  It is as John said...this has to be lived, and once lived, then we can understand (with a little help, like Paul did for the Thessalonians).  The GOOD NEWS isn't "if you're a good christian, and do the right things, you can go to heaven".

 

Does that make sense?



But, yes, this is what has to happen before the "Day of the Lord" happens to you, when the Lord Jesus RETURNS to YOU in Spirit.  I have to believe it's the same for every "christian", each in their own order at the consummation.  The rest of the world as a whole is not the "many called".  It will be better for them in Judgement.  But there is no "bad news" in the end.        
 

[lareli]

Dave just to clarify on your last few sentences..

It will be better for them in judgement.. you’re referring to those who were never called, correct?

[Dave in Tenn]

Dave just to clarify on your last few sentences..

It will be better for them in judgement.. you’re referring to those who were never called, correct?

Yes. 

[lareli]

  The GOOD NEWS isn't "if you're a good christian, and do the right things, you can go to heaven".

Was that the good news according to your church Dave?

We have had different “church” backgrounds and experiences. The Good News as it was presented in virtually every church I’ve been to is that “you don’t have to be good, and you don’t have to do the right things.. just believe in Jesus and accept His forgiveness and you can go to heaven.” People accept this “good news” and continue to live their lives as if they will never be judged. We were taught that our belief in Jesus meant we will bypass the judgment.

[Dave in Tenn]

No, that's pretty much the "gospel" of my church, too.  The "one" I provided was just for contrast.

[lareli]

I've seen people whose "love for the truth" led them directly into a pack of lies.  They'd have been better off ignorant, because now they think they see.

But this is a necessary part of the process for the chosen few.. isn’t it?

[lareli]

Sorry for switching back and forth between topics..

[Dave in Tenn]

I put "love of the truth" in quotations not because I was quoting scripture or you.  I put it there because I don't believe for a second that everyone who claims to have a love for the truth actually DOES.  Some seem to have a love for some kind of gnostic "wisdom", and/or a pet doctrine, and/or controversy, and/or spiritual pride, and/or your basic pride of life, lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes.  Besides, some people LEAVE the truth when they are looking for it.  I've both seen it and lived it.  You'll have to have already decided if this description fits you.  Hopefully, it does not, and I did not post it believing it did.

I've already said I don't think that verse is relevant to every fact, factoid, or viewpoint on every subject.  While I might be wrong, I can't see a human being ever having the "truth" on every subject in any depth that is not just as likely to be error at worst, or falling-short at best. This is a huge and complicated world.  John 1:1-3 is my world-view.  The "delusion" that Paul is talking about here is a spiritual delusion, not (simply) a factual one.  I don't believe God sent a strongly working "lack-of-education".   

FALLING AWAY is a necessary part of the process for the chosen few.  But nobody will know they have until they look back.   Spiritually RETURNING is also a necessary part of the process.   

I don't encourage people to do the worst they can in order that the best happens.  He has already decided in whom the best will happen first.  I do try to encourage those in whom the worst they can do has already happened that this is not the end of the story.

-----------------------------

Let me put my mod hat on for a minute on a broader subject.

This forum certainly doesn't exist to thwart anybody's search for truth on any subject.  At the same time, it doesn't exist to aide anybody in their search for truth on any subject not covered in the materials.  And the forum itself (and especially its members) did not come here to be either allies with, or audience for every line of alleged truth.  I would never have joined if that was expected of me.  Expect blow-back, sooner or later, with or without diplomacy.   

[Dennis Vogel]

Sorry for switching back and forth between topics..

Not a problem. Sometimes things morph into other topics and that's okay. But things can get difficult when the original post contains several topics. Better to create new topics for each unrelated question/item.

[octoberose]

  The GOOD NEWS isn't "if you're a good christian, and do the right things, you can go to heaven".

Was that the good news according to your church Dave?

We have had different “church” backgrounds and experiences. The Good News as it was presented in virtually every church I’ve been to is that “you don’t have to be good, and you don’t have to do the right things.. just believe in Jesus and accept His forgiveness and you can go to heaven.” People accept this “good news” and continue to live their lives as if they will never be judged. We were taught that our belief in Jesus meant we will bypass the judgment.

OH, that was the church we went to for 38 years. They would not tell you that, but it's certainly the way they acted. You know the whole, show me your faith without works and I'll show you mine with works?
  Even the demons believe and shutter.  Yeah, that was us. Years of it.

 A lot of wisdom in all that you wrote Dave, so thank you. Personal Pocket Savior - good one- sad but true.

[lareli]

Good posts Dave. Clears up a lot.

[lareli]

I can't see a human being ever having the "truth" on every subject in any depth that is not just as likely to be error at worst, or falling-short at best. This is a huge and complicated world.  John 1:1-3 is my world-view.  The "delusion" that Paul is talking about here is a spiritual delusion, not (simply) a factual one.  I don't believe God sent a strongly working "lack-of-education".   

I wonder if a love of truth would cause one to know less instead of more?

Presuming to nothing except Christ crucified? Or presuming to know nothing except what the Holy Spirit has revealed to you?

Personally, I am more and more sure of scriptural/spiritual things and less and less sure of almost everything else.

[Dave in Tenn]

Here's something from Paul that bears on this part of the discussion.  Though he's talking in context about "eating and drinking", surely there is wisdom here for those "eating" and "drinking" the knowledge available in the world.

Rom 14:22 (KJV)  Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

(I'd look that up in several translations, because there is a difference in "tone" between them.  Here's my stab at it). 

You have your own belief on a matter?  Have it to yourself before God.  Happy is he that doesn't prove himself faulty in what he approves.

Get happy.  Be happy.  Don't be unhappy any more than you have to be. 



Maybe even without knowing it, this is a part of the wisdom in the rules and purpose of the forum.  I wasn't there.

     

[lareli]

Here's something from Paul that bears on this part of the discussion.  Though he's talking in context about "eating and drinking", surely there is wisdom here for those "eating" and "drinking" the knowledge available in the world.

Rom 14:22 (KJV)  Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

(I'd look that up in several translations, because there is a difference in "tone" between them.  Here's my stab at it). 

You have your own belief on a matter?  Have it to yourself before God.  Happy is he that doesn't prove himself faulty in what he approves.

Get happy.  Be happy.  Don't be unhappy any more than you have to be. 



Maybe even without knowing it, this is a part of the wisdom in the rules and purpose of the forum.  I wasn't there.

   

Dave these words mean more to me than you know.

Thanks.

[Brenda]

I go with John on this.  Too many heresies are creeping into this forum.  I though preaching is not allowed.  I have been reading Ray's material since 2002 and can honestly say the majority here have not even read half of what Ray shared (what a shame).  May God direct our steps to the Truth.

[lareli]

I go with John on this.  Too many heresies are creeping into this forum.  I though preaching is not allowed.  I have been reading Ray's material since 2002 and can honestly say the majority here have not even read half of what Ray shared (what a shame).  May God direct our steps to the Truth.

What heresy?