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[lareli]

Had an email exchange with an old church friend of mine who now pastors a church. I was bringing up some basic questions about Christian doctrine and in the course of one of his replies to me he said something like “if Adam hadn’t eaten of that ungodly fruit..”

The fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They think it’s ungodly.

You guys have any thoughts on that?

[Wanda]

Had an email exchange with an old church friend of mine who now pastors a church. I was bringing up some basic questions about Christian doctrine and in the course of one of his replies to me he said something like “if Adam hadn’t eaten of that ungodly fruit..”

The fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They think it’s ungodly.

You guys have any thoughts on that?

Interesting... when I was in the Church I never heard the fruit or the tree itself was ungodly. The statement your friend made...if only they hadn't eaten of the ungodly fruit, brings to mind the many times I had that same thought.

How could they do that, they had everything, and because of their selfish disobedience, people all over the world have had to suffer and die. To me it was the worst sin, the biggining  of sin and resposible for all sin to follow. The tree represented the very source of it. Pure sin...pure Evil...Ungodly?

[Dave in Tenn]

"Naked and ignorant in the garden" is un-godly.  That's for babies.  Nothing wrong with babies, as long as they are babies.

[lareli]

It’s as if people believe that the fruit of the tree is still forbidden. Afraid to use their own reasoning.

[indianabob]

It’s as if people believe that the fruit of the tree is still forbidden. Afraid to use their own reasoning.
= = =

Friend Largeli

Well, aren't we supposed to use God's reasoning rather than our own to guide our lives?
Seems to me that there was an admonition against each man doing what seemed right in their own eyes?

Judges 17:6  In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Proverbs 14:12  There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Indiana Bob

[lareli]

I can speak for myself when I say that I remember being afraid to listen to anyone’s reason for believing that God didn’t exist or that Christianity was false. I was afraid that I might be convinced that they were right and then lose my salvation..  so I understand where my friend is coming from.

But after the Lord removed that fear and put a desire for “truth” in me.. I see how obvious it is that Christian doctrine falls apart with just the smallest amount of reasoning and discernment.

[lareli]

It’s as if people believe that the fruit of the tree is still forbidden. Afraid to use their own reasoning.
= = =

Friend Largeli

Well, aren't we supposed to use God's reasoning rather than our own to guide our lives?
Seems to me that there was an admonition against each man doing what seemed right in their own eyes?

Judges 17:6  In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Proverbs 14:12  There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Indiana Bob

Yes Bob, use Gods reasoning.. but they do not use any reasoning at all is the point.

When I say ‘their own reasoning’ I mean, independent of the churches group reasoning. Not independent of God.

Isaiah 1:18 “Come, let us reason together.”

Heb 5:14 “But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

[indianabob]

Largeli,

You make some valid points.

Regarding what others may or should do with human reason, please keep in mind that without God's indwelling spirit they
cannot see what we can see. They are deceived and happy in their deception UNLESS and until God grants them His understanding.
That certainly is what happened with me, but I could not see it until the blindness was removed.

Even mother Eve was deceived when she listened to Satan, but also had a natural human desire to choose her own way.
If I understand correctly, all humans resist God until they have their blindness removed and their understanding corrected.

I used to try to tithe and to observe the Jewish holy days and draw closer to God by my works.
It took quite a while before I realized that it didn't work and even then more years before I finally separated myself from "religion".
When the blind are leading the other blind they are not intentionally trying to lead them astray, because they all are going the same way, in error.

Kindly offered, Indiana Bob

[Wanda]

I don't understand how the blind can have any real love for the god they worship, even that is a lie.

[indianabob]

I don't understand how the blind can have any real love for the god they worship, even that is a lie.

Wanda,
Isn't it the case that the blind worship out of fear rather than out of love?
And isn't it true that a deceived person does not realize that they are repeating a lie given to them by a person they know.
So then can we see that God can "wink" at their lying teaching because God knows and understands their ignorance.
There is mention in scripture of those who lied knowingly, but I don't think that is always the situation. Many are just repeating what they have been given by their leaders and neglected to question. In other words, "going along just to get along"

[Wanda]

Very sad Bob, I was them once. I'm blessed to share in your wisdom, thank you.

It reminds me of the haves and have-nots.
Psalm 49:2-12       

2 All you haves and have-nots, All together now: listen.

3 I set plainspoken wisdom before you, my heart-seasoned understandings of life.

4 I fine-tuned my ear to the sayings of the wise, I solve life's riddle with the help of a harp.

5 So why should I fear in bad times, hemmed in by enemy malice,

6 Shoved around by bullies, demeaned by the arrogant rich?

7 Really! There's no such thing as self-rescue, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps.

8 The cost of rescue is beyond our means, and even then it doesn't guarantee

9 Life forever, or insurance against the Black Hole.

10 Anyone can see that the brightest and best die, wiped out right along with fools and dunces.

11 They leave all their prowess behind, move into their new home, The Coffin, The cemetery their permanent address. And to think they named counties after themselves!

12 We aren't immortal. We don't last long. Like our dogs, we age and weaken. And die.

[Dennis Vogel]

Had an email exchange with an old church friend of mine who now pastors a church. I was bringing up some basic questions about Christian doctrine and in the course of one of his replies to me he said something like “if Adam hadn’t eaten of that ungodly fruit..”

The fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They think it’s ungodly.

You guys have any thoughts on that?

You can talk to him once of twice but after that you are casting pearls before swine.

Ray has a lot to say about trying to convince anyone of anything, especially a pastor.

[lareli]

Had an email exchange with an old church friend of mine who now pastors a church. I was bringing up some basic questions about Christian doctrine and in the course of one of his replies to me he said something like “if Adam hadn’t eaten of that ungodly fruit..”

The fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They think it’s ungodly.

You guys have any thoughts on that?

You can talk to him once of twice but after that you are casting pearls before swine.

Ray has a lot to say about trying to convince anyone of anything, especially a pastor.

Ya you’re right.

I was questioning my own motives over the course of our exchanges. I really didn’t want to be that guy who tries to convince someone to change their beliefs.. I feel gross just thinking about it.

Initially I was just responding to an offer he put up on Facebook. He posted one of his sermons and asked people to give it a listen and he said he’d love to talk to anyone who wanted to discuss the topic. The topic was “why go to church?” and I figured I’d oblige, so I emailed him and we began to discuss why I dont go to church anymore.

The church we went to together was not a “Hell” preaching church and I honestly wasn’t even sure if my friend believed in “Hell”. That’s partly why I wanted to talk with him. I remember being told about “Hell” as a kid in a different church but I’d never heard it preached as an adult.

After a couple exchanges, I did learn that this friend did believe in “Hell” but reluctantly so. He follows the liberal style of Christianity that we both were accustomed to in our old church, so he doesn’t teach or preach it and he doesn’t give it much thought either... that’s kinda the topic I’m chewing on in this thread.. they (Christians) don’t think about how much their doctrines are not scriptural.

I’ve been thinking about how church has a culture of discouraging questions or independent thinking apart from the group. And how believing that the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is ungodly, factors in to the culture of not seeking knowledge and not questioning authority.

[Dennis Vogel]

Mat 13:11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

[Ricky]

Dennis I have a question for that one, bible says God respects no man, how is it then He can give anybody this wisdom and not everyone. Bible clearly shows He respects some people over others. This pastors word tell me he is mad at God for something.

[Dennis Vogel]

Dennis I have a question for that one, bible says God respects no man, how is it then He can give anybody this wisdom and not everyone. Bible clearly shows He respects some people over others. This pastors word tell me he is mad at God for something.

If anything God chooses those who are not respected:

1Co 1:26  For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1Co 1:27  But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1Co 1:28  And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

1Co 1:29  That no flesh should glory in his presence.

The day is coming when everyone will have this wisdom.

[indianabob]

Dennis I have a question for that one, bible says God respects no man, how is it then He can give anybody this wisdom and not everyone. Bible clearly shows He respects some people over others. This pastors word tell me he is mad at God for something.

Ricky,
If I understand your point, my answer would be that God does give wisdom to everyone at the best time for them, according to God's love and desire to have them share in His plan for mankind. Some in this age who will be pioneers tasked with the responsibility to go ahead of the others to prepare the way and the rest to come into the family later when the preparation has been accomplished.

But humans are impatient and all want their salvation presented the way they think is better. Like wanting to be an adult before maturity.
Consider all the prophets of old who wanted to know more than God gave them, but had to die and wait in the grave for all this time, never having received the promises but trusting that all would be accomplished as God had said.

Indiana Bob

[Extol]

Dennis I have a question for that one, bible says God respects no man, how is it then He can give anybody this wisdom and not everyone. Bible clearly shows He respects some people over others. This pastors word tell me he is mad at God for something.

Dear Ricky,

Though the "respecter of persons" verses are often used by people to show that God doesn't "play favorites," they are talking about how Gentiles are not inferior to Jews when it comes to being eligible to receive salvation, nor are Jews superior to Gentiles when it comes to the Judgment.

Acts 10:30-35

30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,

31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.

32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.

33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Peter realized God is "no respecter of persons" because this revelation was coming from a Gentile, a Roman centurion.

Galatians 2:6-8 (NIV)

6 As for those who were held in high esteem—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism—they added nothing to my message.

7 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised.

 8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles.

Acts 15:7-9

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.


Romans 2:6-11

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

[indianabob]

Friend Jesse,
Thanks for filling in the scriptures that make it clearer, for all to understand.-

Much appreciated, Indiana bob