First People

[Horan]

Some of us have the understanding that the Adam and Eve story is not literal but a spiritual story chock full of deep spiritual truths.  Adam is the Hebrew word for mankind.  Eve is the mother of all living. But not all have this understanding.  God guides all.

I'm mostly in agreement with this, though I take the garden story at face value. I think the scientific explanation has problems all day long, not the least being that it's not demonstrable theory but purely forensic and speculative. And scientific theories aren't facts but propositions. elaborated hypotheses. There's actually no scientific theory that's factual. It's simply not what a theory is. Theory is proved good or bad by its utility, its predictive capacity, and shouldn't be confused with scientific fact, such as the distance between the earth and the sun. So I don't hold with the concern for reconciling non-repeatable, consensus science with scripture. But I wasn't there. The story may be symbolic in whole or in part. But I believe it's spiritually true, entirely. and much more instructive on that basis than historically or scientifically. So I take it at face value. I've seen that Ray makes significant effort to read science into scripture, but he's done such a fine job with other things that I overlook it. Is this what you guys call being contrary? I could care less about science, while enjoying the benefits of scientific theories that are actually demonstrable.

[lareli]

About Eve: It says in Gen 2:22 that God formed Eve by taking one of Adam's rib.
The hebrew word for « rib » is tsela' (Strong 06763) which signifies also the sides of a door, or the sides of a chamber( in a temple's structure), or the sides of an arch.
Eve is not yet wise in the eyes of God, she's not in the temple of God. And like Adam God took her out of her human foolish position to bring her to His wisdom, and we know Adam, like Our Lord Jesus with His Church, has the prerogative to render his wife pure, unblemished. God brings Eve to Adam after He has fashioned her also, she has come by the same process as Adam. She's wise now and Adam recognizes it by saying « This now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh ».

Just my humble opinion.. Hope I'm kinda clear. I don't mean to confuse anyone 😉

Blessed be God, Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

So the two of them were wise before they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

I would say they weren't even yet self conscious beings (let alone wise beings) until they ate from the tree. Once they ate, they became conscious of their mortality and conscious of the fact that they will die. Conscious of their vulnerabilities to death (naked) and conscious of the concept of 'time' and 'future'. Before they ate, they were no more conscious than beasts..

[Prune Soleiado]

Hello Lareli,

And Peter was wise enough to recognize Christ as the Son of God, yet he finally denies Him.

I must admit this part on Adam and Eve is pretty tough to understand.. 😅

Hope God guides us and shows us the right interpretation 🙏

Very interesting thread! Thanks for the discussion, brothers and sisters, I get to learn so much with you all!

For the glory of God.

[Prune Soleiado]

Did we?
I didn't know anything about the beast when God opened my eyes through Christ.
Yet I had a vague idea of what Holiness should be.
I believe firmly in God, yet I still have so much to be cleansed in my heart.

1Corinthians 3:3 « For ye are yet carnal »

Ray taught us about Eve taking the forbidden fruit: good to be eaten, pleasant to the eye and the pride to gain intelligence.
I still fight with those sins. Even if I am deeply anxious to please God.
Heavens we create, false prophets, fortress of our hearts, we all have throughout our lives in Christ  to realize they're here and learn by God's Grace to reject them.
It's a real path cross. But God supports us and lead us on this way. Christ's way.
Eve and Adam didn't have that chance we have under the New Covenant.

Matthew 13:17 « For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. »

[John from Kentucky]

Some of us have the understanding that the Adam and Eve story is not literal but a spiritual story chock full of deep spiritual truths.  Adam is the Hebrew word for mankind.  Eve is the mother of all living. But not all have this understanding.  God guides all.

Certainly John. But let's not give the impression that Adam and Eve is only a spiritual story. We have Adam's genealogy recorded in the book of Genesis. So we know they were real people.

As for "Adam and Eve story is not literal." Some of it seems to be not literal if you consider Eve is "the mother of all living" and you believe there were humans before Adam and Eve.

But I've often wondered what "the mother of all living" means? Some of her descendants will become "the elect" or spiritually enlightened? What do you think John?

My understanding is that the Adam and Eve story is entirely symbolic and an allegory.

Adam means mankind and he is symbolic of the human father from whom we come.  And Adam came from God.
Seth is the first mentioned in the genealogies when men first called on God.  But Adam (mankind) was not his literal father but his symbolic father.

Eve is also the symbolic mother of all living.  If there were other humans before Eve, then she would only be the mother of some of the living, not the mother of all living.

I have no problem with true science.  It appears God created things over billions of years going from simple to complex.

I have no problem with the Scriptures.  I believe they teach absolute Truth.  Just not literal truth.  Spiritual Truths, which provide deep understanding and peace.  The Spirit guides us and we grow in grace and knowledge over time, just as the Apostles did over time.

[Prune Soleiado]

« Seth is the first mentioned in the genealogies when men first called on God.  But Adam (mankind) was not his literal father but his symbolic father. »

Very enlightening John From Kentucky.
It gives a lot to think about.

[Dave in Tenn]

I have no problem with people who take the first few chapters of Genesis at face value--unless they began to declare to me that "Scripture (or the Bible) says" what scripture (or the bible) does not say.  They can declare that to other people all they want, but they can't declare that to me. 

[Wanda]

John from Kentucky, you said...

Eve is also the symbolic mother of all living.  If there were other humans before Eve, then she would only be the mother of some of the living, not the mother of all living.

Can you please share scripture to support this?

Do these scriptures exclude others who might have lived outside of the garden, and if so how?

Act 17:26 "And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,
v. 27 "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
v. 28 "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.'

[indianabob]

Hi Mark,

I like the way you write and think.
We need to be inquisitive and be seeking to learn as much as we can.
I'm sure that God wants his future leaders to be interested in deeper understanding.
I also believe that God does not assist scientific research with His spirit the way God does concerning spiritual knowledge.
There was a lot that L Ray Smith would have shared with us if he had more time.
His methods were very detailed and careful regarding Scripture and scripture is provided by God even though it is a translation.

There really is not a comparable resource for scientific study, so all scientific theory about the past is questionable and in fact changes with subsequent generations of scholars.

Ole Indiana bob

= = =

Some of us have the understanding that the Adam and Eve story is not literal but a spiritual story chock full of deep spiritual truths.  Adam is the Hebrew word for mankind.  Eve is the mother of all living. But not all have this understanding.  God guides all.

I'm mostly in agreement with this, though I take the garden story at face value. I think the scientific explanation has problems all day long, not the least being that it's not demonstrable theory but purely forensic and speculative. And scientific theories aren't facts but propositions. elaborated hypotheses. There's actually no scientific theory that's factual. It's simply not what a theory is. Theory is proved good or bad by its utility, its predictive capacity, and shouldn't be confused with scientific fact, such as the distance between the earth and the sun. So I don't hold with the concern for reconciling non-repeatable, consensus science with scripture. But I wasn't there. The story may be symbolic in whole or in part. But I believe it's spiritually true, entirely. and much more instructive on that basis than historically or scientifically. So I take it at face value. I've seen that Ray makes significant effort to read science into scripture, but he's done such a fine job with other things that I overlook it. Is this what you guys call being contrary? I could care less about science, while enjoying the benefits of scientific theories that are actually demonstrable.

[John from Kentucky]

John from Kentucky, you said...

Eve is also the symbolic mother of all living.  If there were other humans before Eve, then she would only be the mother of some of the living, not the mother of all living.

Can you please share scripture to support this?

Do these scriptures exclude others who might have lived outside of the garden, and if so how?

Act 17:26 "And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,
v. 27 "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
v. 28 "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.'

I believe that God's Holy Spirit has led me to understand that the Adam and Eve story is not literal but symbolic.

It does not bother me in the least that others believe the story is literally true.  I am an accountant, not a teacher of Scriptures.  Jesus is the Teacher of all Truths.  It is up to Him to save and bring understanding to all.

Those Scriptures you quoted are true and apply to all.

[indianabob]

Hi friend Wanda,

It is challenging to try to understand scripture when we cannot really know the original scripture as stated by the author to people who spoke the same language and heard the teaching first hand. Plus those teachings were given in capsule form for direct memorization by the listener who rehearsed them every sabbath for 40 years with family present. If there were any questions, they were addressed at that time.

When the Bible speaks of God creating "things" such as grass, whole fields of grass and cattle, whole herds of cattle it is tempting to see the creation of "mankind" in the same light. But is that appropriate?

Adam or mankind was extremely special since they were made to emulate God, even to the point of participating in the creation process in the production and daily care of their children who were destined to live forever with God.
God planned for mankind to assist in the creation of all future humans by having the first couple to guide and have dominion over all of their descendants even down to the tenth generation or more. That makes the first couple almost like King and Queen of the world for as long as they lived.

Mankind is being made in the image of God so that mankind and God may communicate on a personal level with mankind eventually being given immortality in the presence of God. That is not the case for any other of God's fleshly created order.

2.
Why is it deemed necessary for there to be long ages for mankind to have developed to the point of being able to think cognitively?
Is it imagined by some that God could not have created a "finished product" in the first human. A person with the ability to hear and speak and understand God's teaching from the first breath of life?

Just a few thoughts to stimulate our interest...

Indiana Bob

John from Kentucky, you said...

Eve is also the symbolic mother of all living.  If there were other humans before Eve, then she would only be the mother of some of the living, not the mother of all living.

Can you please share scripture to support this?

Do these scriptures exclude others who might have lived outside of the garden, and if so how?

Act 17:26 "And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,
v. 27 "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
v. 28 "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.'

[Dennis Vogel]

It is challenging to try to understand scripture when we cannot really know the original scripture as stated by the author to people who spoke the same language and heard the teaching first hand. Plus those teachings were given in capsule form for direct memorization by the listener who rehearsed them every sabbath for 40 years with family present. If there were any questions, they were addressed at that time.

I don't recall where 'direct memorization' was used, but I may be wrong. This is what I know:

Gen 5:1  This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

A book is a long ways away from memorization.

When the Bible speaks of God creating "things" such as grass, whole fields of grass and cattle, whole herds of cattle it is tempting to see the creation of "mankind" in the same light. But is that appropriate?

Why is that inappropriate?

Adam or mankind was extremely special since they were made to emulate God, even to the point of participating in the creation process in the production and daily care of their children who were destined to live forever with God.

You mean I am participating in the creation process because I have children?

Emulate: "match or surpass (a person or achievement), typically by imitation."

You need to be careful when comparing any human being to God. I don't think any human can be part of the creation process with our puny intelect. The creation is well beyond our comprehension.

God planned for mankind to assist in the creation of all future humans by having the first couple to guide and have dominion over all of their descendants even down to the tenth generation or more. That makes the first couple almost like King and Queen of the world for as long as they lived.

Then all their descendants have failed miserably.

Mankind is being made in the image of God so that mankind and God may communicate on a personal level with mankind eventually being given immortality in the presence of God. That is not the case for any other of God's fleshly created order.

Joh 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

And several other scripters say this. But nowhere that I know of says we will ever see God the father. Or even communicate with God one on one. But I could be wrong so please show me some contrary scriptures.

Why is it deemed necessary for there to be long ages for mankind to have developed to the point of being able to think cognitively?

I'm more astonished each year about how cognitive people were ages ago.

Is it imagined by some that God could not have created a "finished product" in the first human. A person with the ability to hear and speak and understand God's teaching from the first breath of life?

Somethings cannot be taught and must be learned the hard way.

Heb 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Wanda]

Thanks John.

My question should not have included your entire statement, as I only wanted scripture that supports this portion...

If there were other humans before Eve, then she would only be the mother of some of the living, not the mother of all living.

Is asking for supporting scripture the same as asking to be taught?  Maybe it is, I'll think about that.

We are both in agreement on who our teacher is, and there is none like him.

Psalm 32:8  "I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will counsel you with my loving eye on you."

[Dennis Vogel]

Thanks John.

My question should not have included your entire statement, as I only wanted scripture that supports this portion...

If there were other humans before Eve, then she would only be the mother of some of the living, not the mother of all living.

Is asking for supporting scripture the same as asking to be taught?  Maybe it is, I'll think about that.

We are both in agreement on who our teacher is, and there is none like him.

Psalm 32:8  "I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will counsel you with my loving eye on you."

Mat 8:22  But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

You know someone who is actually dead cannot bury anyone. They are dead.

Gen 3:20  And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

The word 'living' may not mean being alive. It's most likely a spiritual statement, IMO.

[Wanda]

Thanks Dennis,

Very good points.

[Dennis Vogel]

Makes sense to me Wanda, that's all. I just thought of this:

Jesus created Adam and Eve called her the mother of all living which is most likely symbolic.

The same Jesus said let the dead bury the dead.

There can be no denying 'dead' is symbolic here which reinforces 'living' as also symbolic IMO.

[John from Kentucky]

Thanks John.

My question should not have included your entire statement, as I only wanted scripture that supports this portion...

If there were other humans before Eve, then she would only be the mother of some of the living, not the mother of all living.

Is asking for supporting scripture the same as asking to be taught?  Maybe it is, I'll think about that.

We are both in agreement on who our teacher is, and there is none like him.

Psalm 32:8  "I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will counsel you with my loving eye on you."

The Scripture was that Eve was called the mother of all living.

From that Scripture I asked a question, if there were humans before Eve, then how could she be the mother of all living?  My question is not Scripture.  And I do not have an answer.

[lareli]

There were humans before Eve, or at the very least there was one human before Eve.. and she was not his mother.

Like Dave pointed out the scripture "let the dead bury the dead". Not all who are breathing are living apparently.

[Wanda]

Makes sense to me Wanda, that's all. I just thought of this:

Jesus created Adam and Eve called her the mother of all living which is most likely symbolic.

The same Jesus said let the dead bury the dead.

There can be no denying 'dead' is symbolic here which reinforces 'living' as also symbolic IMO.

It does give me much to ponder.

[Wanda]

The Scripture was that Eve was called the mother of all living.

From that Scripture I asked a question, if there were humans before Eve, then how could she be the mother of all living?  My question is not Scripture.  And I do not have an answer.

Im familiar with this teaching process John. Things not taught by human wisdom.