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Horan:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on July 11, 2018, 09:24:50 PM ---Horan, all I can tell you is that I do not (cannot) read (especially) the 2nd chapter of Genesis as History. To me, there is a clear difference between the way the Gospels (and all the NT) "read" and nearly all of the Old Testament, and I don't think that's because of the differences in the original languages, though it might be.
I "am" where I am on this matter, and sense great rest being "here". For all I know, I'm confessing my sins. So be it. I don't mean to disturb anybody else's rest, but sometimes I am less than sure that what they are experiencing really IS rest. I've never preached what I "believe" on this subject to anybody with the intent of winning converts. In fact, I've never preached the "complete" version to anyone, ever. I'm just saving a spot in the Higher Assembly for such as me. I want them to know its OK. Thousands have tried to preach to me all my life. First the church, then the world. Everybody is going to answer, including me.
Beyond that, scripture itself doesn't require me to believe that Samson slew exactly 1000 philistines with the literal jaw-bone of a literal a@@. It does require me to believe in the death and Resurrection of Jesus. And I do. When I left the church and went into the world with a passion, only He "remained" of my ever-dimming faith until He himself was almost extinguished. He is Lord, and no bible character old or new is more important than Him. Since Jesus, I don't care any more about Samson, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Job, or David. He is Lord of the living.
--- End quote ---
Dave, since you've addressed me personally I'll respond in kind. I don't know what I said specifically that prompted this. This is a discussion board and I've engaged in discussion. I've not told you what to think or believe. I think you have every right to not care about Samson, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Job or David. So I'm forewarned to not discuss any of these things with you.
Prune Soleiado:
Hello Chris, hello brothers and sisters,
Woahh! What an inspiring thread, it brings so much to say to all of us!
Wonderful!
Chris, I never said Adam told anything about the fact he had to leave his mother and father, for you’re totally right: he actually only spoke as we can read it about Eve as bone of his bones and flesh of his flesh.
Now may I insist on one thing: ALL IS ONE, one Spirit and only one inspires us, God’s children, whether it inspires Moses or Adam or Paul or Timothe or... us.
Jesus reminds us that all He does or says comes from God Our Father.
The bible is ONE BIG PARABLE. Of course historical events came out of it but it was for our admonition as Paul said. It is still a parable we, as God’s children, oughta understand, not a mystery: everything in it shows us what we have to endure as God’s elect.
Adam giving names to animals is part of it: we must learn to recognize the beasts in us and around us, name it and then reject it as external to us, for we are not part of this world inhabited by animals, whatever they are, whatever they look like. So that we should be able to recognize plainly who is part of Christ’s body, who is a real help for us, bones of our bone and flesh of our flesh.
Eve is the mother (the starting point) of the few (the real church not the synagogue of Satan) which God has gave aionios life, those few are parts of Christ’s body.
His bones and flesh. For our body is the temple of God.
Now I maintain the fact that Adam and Eve were NOT the first people and that they had earthly mothers and fathers (genealogically and spiritually) they had to LEAVE OUT to become part of Christ’s body.
Matthew 10:35 « For I have come to turn "'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law ».
Luke 9:59-60 « He said to another man, "Follow me." But he replied, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father. Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of GOD »
Revelation 18:4 « Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "'Come out of her, my people,' so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues »
We must leave out our own beliefs, what we thought we came from and what we thought made us, for it is God in Christ in us that is forming us from now on, we are becoming part of a new family, but we must have recognize the old one and then reject it to turn ourself as part of a totally new family, because « new wine must be poured into new wineskins » (Luke 5:38).
Dave in Tenn:
Yes, Horan, this is a discussion board. Your post did not specifically prompt me to post, though it did give me opportunity to share that other views are possible.
You said. "...But the creation story isn't presented like this, but rather as historical narrative, much as the story of Calvary is presented, not as simply a poem filled with spiritual truth." I just want people to know that they can believe in an Historic Jesus who died and was raised from the dead without believing that the Second chapter of Genesis is historically factual. That the "story of Calvary" has exceedingly more historical evidence. And maybe it is even way more important.
Look above at the email exchange Zeke Sr. posted. But for the grace of God, that could have been me being talked about. So I'm a wee bit passionate about this, but I didn't mean to come across as bowling you over. Sorry.
I know of some ultra-literalists who make YEC proponents look like flaming liberals. We all find our place.
ZekeSr:
When I started this post, I never thought it would develop into the structure that it has or continue on for this lengthy a stretch. And despite a few somewhat slightly “testy” moments, it’s been quite interesting and informative. After reading and considering all these posts, as well as doing quite a bit of prayer, contemplation, and of course some research inside and out of Scripture, I thought I’d interject the elements that have come into the light from my perspective:
First of all, Adam and Eve were absolutely not the first humans to walk the face of the earth. Of that, I am now certain.
Were they real? Were they an allegory? A metaphor? Is the whole account “just” another a parable? Well someone had to breed children and flesh out the lineage leading to our Lord and Savior. And that genealogy, in my opinion, is laid out in too much detail to be a pure parable. And, obviously, there had to be a first man and woman somewhere along the line. With that being said, like so many other dualities contained in Scripture, Adam, while genealogically correct, could still be considered “humanity,” according to his name, whereas the more direct line leading to Jesus could begin with Seth whose name means Anointed.
But now I see a more symbolic lesson in who or what Adam and Eve really are—a deep spiritual lesson—a parable. Adam and Eve are types. They are the human paradigm of God and the Word. The first example of what human relationships and family really represent:
Who was Jesus before he was a man? He was the Word:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
Before the Word became flesh, the Word was God’s Helper (Helpmate?) through whom all things came into being. And where did Jesus say He originally came from?
Joh 16:27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28 I came out from the Father and have come into the world; I leave the world again and go to the Father.
Joh_10:30 I and the Father are One!
And where did Eve come from? Eve came out from Adam:
Gen 2:18 And Jehovah God said, It is not good, the man being alone. (Was it good for God to be alone? Apparently not.) I will make a helper suited to him.
Gen 2:22 And Jehovah God formed the rib which He had taken from the man into a woman, and brought her to the man.
Gen 2:23 And the man said, This now at last is bone from my bones, and flesh from my flesh. For this shall be called Woman, because this has been taken out of man.
I’m going to use gender here; and that may seem strange to some, but I see no other proper way to describe it. Spiritual aspects can only be expressed by humans in human terms.
Eve’s name means “mother” …and as Prune pointed out… it also means “starting point.”
Adam and Eve are a parable based in spiritual truth with what I believe to be some historical facts sprinkled in. And the “real Eve” is the Word, the Starting Point, the Helper who came out from God, the Creator of all that exists in the Universe, the “Mother” of all living.
Gen_3:20 And the man called the name of his wife, Eve; because she became the mother of all living.
And the Word, divested of glory, became flesh and dwelt among us as Jesus, the Son of god.
Php 2:5 For think this within you, which mind was also in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who subsisting in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
Php 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, having become in the likeness of men
Php 2:8 and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, having become obedient until death, even the death of a cross.
Php 2:9 Because of this also God highly exalted Him and gave Him a name above every name,
Php 2:10 that at the name of Jesus "every knee should bow," of heavenly ones, and earthly ones, and ones under the earth,
Php 2:11 and "every tongue should confess" that Jesus Christ is "Lord," to the glory of God the Father.
Mike
Wanda:
Much thanks Mike!
This thread has been very benifical to me, as I'm sure it will be to others reading it along the way.
My understanding is much the same, and this point you made...Is quite interesting.
And the “real Eve” is the Word, the Starting Point, the Helper who came out from God, the Creator of all that exists in the Universe, the “Mother” of all living.
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