New Heavens and New Earth

[Heidi]

I believe that the earth is important to God and that it will continue to be inhabited by mankind even after judgement and fire.

Isaiah 60:21 "Then all your people will be righteous; They will possess the land forever, The branch of My planting, The work of My hands, That I may be glorified."

Just my two cents worth....

[Heidi]

"Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end..." Isaiah 9:7

[Wanda]

Habakkuk 2:14

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

[ML]

Sorry for you gloom and doomers, but it does help to have some understanding of the Scriptures.

In two Scriptures, in Matthew and Mark, Jesus tells us that unless those end days were shortened, then no flesh would be saved alive.  But for sake of His Elect, those days will be shortened.

So there will be life, not total destruction.  God is the God of the living, not the dead, for all will live unto Him and all will be saved.

Well John, if we're going to work in gardens and cow manure for all eternity, with women in long dresses and men in cowboy attire, some changes have to be made right? 😁

[John from Kentucky]

Sorry for you gloom and doomers, but it does help to have some understanding of the Scriptures.

In two Scriptures, in Matthew and Mark, Jesus tells us that unless those end days were shortened, then no flesh would be saved alive.  But for sake of His Elect, those days will be shortened.

So there will be life, not total destruction.  God is the God of the living, not the dead, for all will live unto Him and all will be saved.

Well John, if we're going to work in gardens and cow manure for all eternity, with women in long dresses and men in cowboy attire, some changes have to be made right? 😁

A future with women and cowboys sounds good to me.

[indianabob]

Hope you get what you're after John,
But my understanding of the elect is as follows; and you are attaining to election are you not?
Bob
= =

1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 

1Co 15:35  But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 
1Co 15:36  Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 
1Co 15:37  And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 
1Co 15:38  But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 
1Co 15:39  All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 
=
1Co 15:40  There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 

1Co 15:41  There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 
1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 
1Co 15:43  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 
1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 
1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 
1Co 15:46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 
1Co 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 
1Co 15:48  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 

1Co 15:49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 

[Wanda]

I see no good reason whatsoever to dismiss the plausibility of God's wrath being expressed in literal destruction. Just examine the world we live in. Examine the history of the past 2,000 years. Examine the 20th Century. Aren't the examples too numerous to count of God's judgement being expressed in horrific, literal terms?  What would actually be unusual about it? And I think the scriptural evidence easily supports this expectation. And that's all I intend to say about it. I've corresponded with Rick before, and I was responding to his query, even though it was mainly directed toward understanding what Ray may have said or written on this subject.

Horan, I wasn't dismissing your thoughts, but found this part of your comment a bit funny.

"It appears to me that this is a problematic issue with regard to those who believe in universal reconciliation".

I understood this to mean those of us who don't see this as you do have a problem, .and after all my deligent efforts in studying Gods word on the matter, you came in to dispel all my hard work and understanding, by letting me know I have a problem.. Sorry,  but I couldn't resist teasing you a little.☺

[John from Kentucky]

Hope you get what you're after John,
But my understanding of the elect is as follows; and you are attaining to election are you not?
Bob
= =

1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1Co 15:35  But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36  Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37  And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38  But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39  All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
=
1Co 15:40  There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

1Co 15:41  There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1Co 15:49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

I cannot fool you, can I-Bob?  Thanks for the sermon.  I guess I'll sleep in this Sunday and not associate with the sinners in the church.

For you see, there are Scriptures that tell us God chose the Elect prior to creation.
If I happen to be one of the Elect, then I had nothing to do with it.  I cannot Elect  myself, nor can I un-Elect myself.  None of your Scriptures can save me.  Jesus is my Savior, which He will do at my appointed time, when I will stand up and see He Who saves me.

[Rick Longva]

The verses in question (that are said to prove God will obliterate the Earth and the heavens) are from 2 Peter 3:10-13. Here they are from the CLNT:

"Now the day of the Lord will be arriving as a thief, in which the heavens shall be passing by with a booming noise, yet the elements shall be dissolved by combustion, and the earth and the works in it shall be found.
11 At these all, then, dissolving, to what manner of men must you belong in holy behavior and devoutness,
12 hoping for and hurrying the presence of God's day, because of which the heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved, and the elements decompose by combustion!
13 Yet we, according to His promises, are hoping for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness is dwelling."

I like to find proofs from the scriptures-in the scriptures. I know there are many who take this portion of scripture and use it to prove the elements in question are the elements that make up the Earth and heavens. I do not believe that is the case (and Horan, there are many who believe in the reconciliation of all who believe this Earth and the heavens are going to be obliterated, and God will create all new). These elements that Peter speaks of are found in the writings of Paul.

Galatians 4:3, 9:  "Thus we also, when we were minors, were enslaved under the elements of the world."  "Yet now, knowing God, yet rather being known by God, how are you turning back again to the infirm and poor elements for which you want to slave again anew? And in

Colossians 2:8, 20: "Beware that no one shall be despoiling you through philosophy and empty seduction, in accord with human tradition, in accord with the elements of the world, and not in accord with Christ."   "If, then, you died together with Christ from the elements of the world, why, as living in the world, are you subject to decrees."

And Hebrews 5:12:  "For when also, because of the time, you ought to be teachers, you have need again of one to teach you what are the rudimentary elements of the oracles of God, and you have come to have need of milk, and not of solid nourishment."

All of these elements have to be destroyed in order for all to be all in God. The Earth and the heavens do not have to be destroyed, as Wanda pointed out from Genesis 8:21. Fire is always used to purge, cleanse, each of us will be salted with fire (Mark 949), our God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). We are told that we who believe are a New Creation in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17). At present we, the believers, are being purged of these elements as we are being formed in His image. There will come a time when all will be purged of these elements, those in the heavens, on the Earth, and under the Earth.

That is a brief synopsis of my understanding.

[Dennis Vogel]

2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

"In approximately 5 billion years, the sun will begin the helium-burning process, turning into a red giant star. When it expands, its outer layers will consume Mercury and Venus, and reach Earth" (Google).

2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Do you think at some point time will also pass differently for everyone?

[yello62]

as i understand it, time was created for this eon. 

[Dennis Vogel]

as i understand it, time was created for this eon.

You mean the last 14.5 billion years is one eon?

[yello62]

no, i mean the eon that includes the creation of mankind and ends with the return of Christ.  i may be wrong, as the reign of Christ is mentioned as a specific period of time, 1000 years, and have understood that as a separate age. 

as with most things of this nature, we will find out as we experience it.

[Dennis Vogel]

no, i mean the eon that includes the creation of mankind and ends with the return of Christ.  i may be wrong, as the reign of Christ is mentioned as a specific period of time, 1000 years, and have understood that as a separate age. 

as with most things of this nature, we will find out as we experience it.

Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The above verse is spurious. See: https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,6638.msg53239.html#msg53239

But your point is still valid. But I don't remember any verse that implies time ends. If anything there are many ages.

KJC = Eph 3:21  Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Rotherham would be a better translation:

Eph 3:21  Unto him, be the glory, in the assembly, and in Christ Jesus—unto all the generations of the age of ages; Amen:—

[yello62]

and it make sense that if there are many ages, they are makred off by something, whether it be called time or not.

there is a d.j. here i. chicago that uses the phrase "it's great to be alive".  when thinking about what The Father may have in store for us in the comings eons, whether they be time based, or not, makes me burst with that sentiment some times.  aren't we all blessed, and isn't it great to be alive?

[Dennis Vogel]

and it make sense that if there are many ages, they are makred off by something, whether it be called time or not.

there is a d.j. here i. chicago that uses the phrase "it's great to be alive".  when thinking about what The Father may have in store for us in the comings eons, whether they be time based, or not, makes me burst with that sentiment some times.  aren't we all blessed, and isn't it great to be alive?

For some it's great to be alive - But for me I'm more than ready for this to be over.

[Wanda]

For some it's great to be alive - But for me I'm more than ready for this to be over

Amen to that.

In this life,  time is a real kill joy for the most part, we are slaves to the consraints of it.. From the moment we're born we begin to die, second by second, time is running out, and yet, it still keeps going, never takes a break,  such a perplexing phenomenon. Most everything we do involves a race Against  it. I personally see time as being oppressive.

God is not bound by time he transends it

Psalm 90:4

   4    For A thousand years in your sight

are but as yesterday when it is past,

or as ca watch in the night.

His perspective on time is far different from ours.

Psalm 102:12

   12    But you, O Lord, are enthroned forever;
you ARE remembered throughout all generations.

The Lord does not count time as we do. He is above and outside of the sphere of time. God sees all of eternity’s past and eternity’s future. The time that passes on earth is of no consequence from God’s timeless perspective. A second is no different from an eon; a billion years pass like seconds to the eternal God.

God is spirit in the realm of timelessness, rather than flesh in the sphere of time. God is even beyond eternity. And this is where I will be one day, free from the oppressive constraints of time, where time has no power.

My answer is yes, time will pass differently for everyone.

[yello62]

dennis, as paul said, the sufferings of this present evil age cannot be compared to the things that are to come.  trust me, i am ready for the next age.  my physical health has deteriorated terribly over the past five years.  i am isolated from most things because of my health.  i am in jeapordy of losing the job that pays for the insurance benefits that i desperately need.  i am in real jeapordy of losing my left foot to amputation.  i understand that the experience of this age is not ideal, trust me.  i am speaking in the sense that firstly, the suffering that we experience now will be offset by the joy we will experience when we are transformed, and secondly, and more importantly in my mind, we have the declared word that says that Christ will bring all things in heaven and earth into submission, death will be destroyed, and The Father will be all-in-all.  to have been given the breath of life, no matter our experience of it, is to be blessed, and this, it is great to be (alive).

[Wanda]

Galatians 4:3, 9:  "Thus we also, when we were minors, were enslaved under the elements of the world."  "Yet now, knowing God, yet rather being known by God, how are you turning back again to the infirm and poor elements for which you want to slave again anew? And in

Colossians 2:8, 20: "Beware that no one shall be despoiling you through philosophy and empty seduction, in accord with human tradition, in accord with the elements of the world, and not in accord with Christ."   "If, then, you died together with Christ from the elements of the world, why, as living in the world, are you subject to decrees."

And Hebrews 5:12:  "For when also, because of the time, you ought to be teachers, you have need again of one to teach you what are the rudimentary elements of the oracles of God, and you have come to have need of milk, and not of solid nourishment."

All of these elements have to be destroyed in order for all to be all in God. The Earth and the heavens do not have to be destroyed, as Wanda pointed out from Genesis 8:21. Fire is always used to purge, cleanse, each of us will be salted with fire (Mark 949), our God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). We are told that we who believe are a New Creation in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17). At present we, the believers, are being purged of these elements as we are being formed in His image. There will come a time when all will be purged of these elements, those in the heavens, on the Earth, and under the Earth. 

When God came as a fire upon Mount Sinai, it was said in Deut. 4:24, "The Lord your God is a consuming fire." 

In Exodus 3  we see even though the bush was on fire it didn't literally burn.

. 2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.

This consuming fire is the same fire, that will be used for the time when the new heavens, the new earth, and the new Jerusalem, will essentially consume or devour all that is old. Is this not the purpose of the lake of fire, which affects both heaven and earth?

[ML]

Wanda, wouldn't that also apply to our fiery trials?