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Author Topic: Persecution  (Read 8913 times)

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Heidi

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Re: Persecution
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2019, 12:43:21 AM »

I looked up what the word "persecution" means in Strongs and the different versus, for instance,

Romans:8:35
Who shall separate us from the love of the Christ?  tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or  nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Mark:4:17
have not root in themselves, but are temporary;  afterward tribulation or persecution having come because of the  word, immediately they are stumbled.

Matthew 13:21
But since they have no root, they last only a short ...
When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. ...
When pressure or persecution comes because of the word, immediately he stumbles. ..

1 Thessalonians 3:7
Therefore, brothers and sisters, in all our distress and persecution we were encouraged about you because of your faith. ...

Hebrews 10:33
Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. ...

The Oxford dictionary states the following on the meaningof the word:
​1.  The act of treating somebody in a cruel and unfair way, especially because of their race, religion or political beliefs
the victims of religious persecution.  They fled to Europe to escape persecution.
​2.  The act of deliberately annoying somebody all the time and making their life unpleasant

When reading these scriptures I noticed the preceding words to persecution, such as tribulation, insult, distress, pressure etc. 

I am encouraged because my life is a pressure pot of all the above.  I am not physically stoned for my faith but through much tribulations must enter the kingdom of God.

Heidi







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indianabob

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Re: Persecution
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2019, 01:07:44 PM »

Hi friends,
Having read thus far I have some thoughts to share that are intended to add light, so please bear with me.

I am having difficulty comparing tribulations with "religious persecution"
I have had a few tribulations in my 84 years that so far as I am aware had nothing to do with my faith or belief systems or the exercise of same.
I suppose that some of my tribulations could have been caused by authorities in high places, but have no way of knowing that.
It seems from the daily news that people of other "faiths" or no faith at all, maybe "pagan" have had even worse tribulations.
So we may attribute our often serious tribulations to God preparing us for the Kingdom, but is it due to our open, public belief in different religious doctrines? Is it due to our offending other people who believe differently? I don't see it.

When in the past I observed the seventh day sabbath there was a direct effect on my public work schedule. Someone had to cover my work shift on Saturday so that I could be off. Now that was not the fault of any other employee or of my employer who had established a business without my help may years previously. I did have the option of finding another job out of loving consideration for my fellow workers. What in scripture compels me to put difficulty in the path of my fellow workers who otherwise cover a seven day a week schedule, each taking their turn as needed. [smile]

When our beliefs conflict with public policy it can make our lives more difficult, but is it persecution?
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Wanda

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Re: Persecution
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2019, 02:58:15 PM »

Quote
The "invisible" persecution happens in the pews from the pulpit. 

Oh my yes,  and it's mighty powerful.   Coming out of an extremely oppressive religion, this form of persecution was much worse than any of the visible I experienced. There is no escape until the truth sets you free.

Quote
Read what God inspired into scripture about The Lord Jesus, Stephen and Saul/Paul.  Where did it come from?  What did it lead to?  How did the Lord Jesus and Paul "survive"/thrive? 

The biggest threat of persecution that Jesus, Stephen and Paul had to contend with came from the Jewish religeous powers at that time. They were powerful enough to  influence government leaders as well. Because of these powerful religeous leaders Jesus was crucified and Stephen was stoned, as well as many others.

The persecution had a purpose, it  was actually demonstritive in spreading the gospel at that time. It also enboldened the ones preaching the gospel.  We can see the same boldness with missionaries who go into dangerous areas of the world  to teach, even if they don't teach the gospel of grace it still has a purpose in Gods plan.

Of course the majorty of us don't experience this severe form of persecution because we don't have to contend with religeous leaders with that kind of influence and power, but what many of us do contend with, is the oppressive form of persecution that comes from the religeous leaders,  of the very churches  we were called out of.

Oppress - synonym
To burden spiritually or mentally : weigh heavily on,  oppressed by a sense of failure,  oppress by intolerable guilt



« Last Edit: October 03, 2019, 02:35:46 PM by Wanda »
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Musterseed

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Re: Persecution
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2019, 04:08:37 PM »

From the LOF part 11 ( all caps are Rays)

And when they were come to the place which is called Calvary, there they { everyone,
you, me, THE WHOLE WORLD } CRUCIFIED HIM.

But before our Saviour died, He prayed this prayer.’FATHER, FORGIVE THEM,,,, for they know
NOT what they do.”

Meditate on that verse for a few hours or ....years,etc.

WHO IS ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE CRUCIFIXION OF JESUS?

For he is not a Jew which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision , which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly and circumscion is that of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men but of God.

For we are THE  CIRCUMCISION , which worship God in the Spirit, and rejoice in the Christ Jesus
and have no confidence in the flesh.Phil.3:3

And they , ( , everyone, you , me, ALL OF US ,,, Matt 27:35,,, CRUCIFIED HIM

JER.17:9,,, The heart( of carnal, unconverted , mankind) IS DECEITFUL ABOVE ALL THINGS
AND DESPERATELY WICKED; who can know it?
Rom. 8:7,, Because of the carnal( natural) mind is enmity ( a deep seated hatred against God);
for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


I agree Wanda , that persecution has a purpose. “ Forgive them Father for they KNOW NOT
what they do”

FROM THE MYTH OF FREE WILL

Quote Ray,,,, even Gods Chosen Elect we’re once deceived


THE INVISIBLE HAND OF DECEPTION is an awesome study also today I am studying,
speaking in tongues, languages, there is a lot more to this one  than I thought.

Love  to all
In Christ Pamela
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Wanda

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Re: Persecution
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2019, 06:03:04 PM »

Rolihlahla, no worries, I was just adding food for thought myself.

Octoberose,

I agree our persecution does not have to be severe to be considered persecution. I'm pretty sure I am currently experiencing it to some degree, but because it's not as severe as when I was still in the church, which by the way strengthend my resolve, I consider it more of an annoyance than anything else. The real battle is from things not seen, not of flesh and blood.

Things that were once a burden,  that caused  great saddness, have been replaced with an understanding of the why of it all. There is great freedom in that knowing.

Actually, being isolated has worked in my favour,  because all of the distractions that get in the way of studying, and spending time with God have been removed.    Perhaps that is why God has isolated many of us .

« Last Edit: October 03, 2019, 01:39:26 AM by Wanda »
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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

Heidi

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Re: Persecution
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2019, 07:40:51 PM »

If any of us, true believers of Christ whom have been shown the mysteries of His Kingdom were to go to any mainstream church today and preach from the pulpit what we believe, all of us will be persecuted.  No ifs ands or buts.  We all know this in our hearts.  Is this not persecution? 
Heidi
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indianabob

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Re: Persecution
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2019, 03:11:37 AM »

If any of us, true believers of Christ whom have been shown the mysteries of His Kingdom were to go to any mainstream church today and preach from the pulpit what we believe, all of us will be persecuted.  No ifs ands or buts.  We all know this in our hearts.  Is this not persecution? 
Heidi

Hello Heidi,
Not sure this will help or if it is fair to state, but supposing that I agree with your statement above, why do you think we should preach what we have learned in someone else's congregation. Isn't that "inviting" persecution? Does God require us to try to save other people when we know we are not welcome? Or is it better to live simply as an example of God's love for all persons and only be ready to give an answer for the faith that lie within us when asked in true sincerity. Surely as mature adults in the faith we can moderate our comments and simply change the subject to one more acceptable to the hearers. When God desires a person to seek truth won't it be obvious to those of us who are knowledgeable?

Mark 6:11
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Joh 6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 
1Co 2:15  But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 
1Co 2:16  For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 

Matthew 10:14
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Kindly offered, Indiana Bob
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Doug

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Re: Persecution
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2019, 12:57:21 PM »

Ray stated that persecution can only come from others. Would that include Satan?

In my life only a few times have someone mocked me for my believes. It was only words and they only have the power to hurt if you allow it. I think Ray considered people attaching him for his faith as persecution. Somehow I see it as having to be much harsher.

Doug
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Heidi

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Re: Persecution
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2019, 01:29:44 PM »

Hi Indiana Bob,

I totally agree with you.  My comment was not to be taken literary, I am sorry if it was interpreted as that. 

I started the conversation with "If" and only wanted to show that if God so inspired us to do that the outcome woul be persecution.  I have no intention or desire to do so.  I came out of Babylon in 2008 by the grace of God and have no desire to go back.

I give account of my faith when asked and know that no one can come to God unless He drags us to Him.

I totally agree with you on "When God desires a person to seek truth won't it be obvious to those of us who are knowledgeable?"

Thank you for the time you took in replying to my post and giving me the opportunity to explain as I don't want any misconceptions to be made.

Heidi
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Heidi

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Re: Persecution
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2019, 01:38:22 PM »

Somehow I see it as having to be much harsher.

I do too, isn't there a saying that sticks and stones may break your bones but words will never leave you. 

Rom 5:2-4 "2. through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3. Not only that, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4. perseverance, character; and character, hope.…"

Heidi
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Wanda

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Re: Persecution
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2019, 02:20:39 PM »

At this time we remain in the wilderness somewhere between Egypt and the Promised Land.
And it is in this wilderness that the accuser now comes to persecute the woman (church)

Who is this church?

Revelation 12:12 says,

12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.

Ephesians 6:12

12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms

This is a spiritual persecution that I contend with daily, and some days are harder than others. We are in a spiritual battle against the forces of evil, not in a battle against the physical powers. What could be harder than this?

« Last Edit: October 03, 2019, 03:10:34 PM by Wanda »
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Wanda

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Re: Persecution
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2019, 05:39:15 PM »

The following is from an older thread where  Dave from Tennessee posted something I think will help in the understanding of persecution.   Im about half way through the study on the scriptures he suggested,  and think it's  extremely benifical. Thanks Dave!

Dave
I'm just going to post these here for anybody without e-sword or such: 

Persecute

G1377
διώκω
diōkō
Thayer Definition:
1) to make to run or flee, put to flight, drive away
2) to run swiftly in order to catch a person or thing, to run after
2a) to press on: figuratively of one who in a race runs swiftly to reach the goal
2b) to pursue (in a hostile manner)
3) in any way whatever to harass, trouble, molest one
3a) to persecute
3b) to be mistreated, suffer persecution on account of something
4) without the idea of hostility, to run after, follow after: someone
5) metaphorically, to pursue
5a) to seek after eagerly, earnestly endeavour to acquire
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a prolonged (and causative) form of a primary verb dio (to flee; compare the base of G1169 and G1249)
Citing in TDNT: 2:229, 177

That's what the word means.  We know by the "persecution" events what actually took place.  Here's a list of scripture where the word appears.  I challenge you to look them all up and read around them as well, and to "replace" the word "persecution" or "persecute" with the main "definitions" above.  There's 48 of them.  That's a lot, I know...but this topic has come up so frequently over the years I think a good study is worth it.

Let's take this word out of the mouths of preachers.  Let's own it.

G1377
διώκω
diōkō
Total KJV Occurrences: 48
persecuted, 13
Mat_5:10, Mat_5:12, Joh_15:20, Act_7:52, Act_22:4, Act_26:11, 1Co_4:12, 1Co_15:9, 2Co_4:9, Gal_1:13, Gal_1:23, Gal_4:29, Rev_12:13
follow, 8
Luk_17:23, Rom_14:19, 1Co_14:1, Phi_3:12, 1Th_5:15, 1Ti_6:11, 2Ti_2:22, Heb_12:14
persecute, 8
Mat_5:11, Mat_5:44, Mat_10:23, Mat_23:34, Luk_21:12, Joh_5:16, Joh_15:20, Rom_12:14
persecutest, 6
Act_9:4-5 (2), Act_22:7-8 (2), Act_26:14-15 (2)
persecution, 3
Gal_6:11-12 (2), 2Ti_3:12
suffer, 3
Gal_6:11-12 (2), 2Ti_3:12
followed, 2
Rom_9:30-31 (2)
after, 1
Rom_14:19
ensue, 1
1Pe_3:11
given, 1
Rom_12:13
persecuting, 1
Phi_3:6
press, 1
Phi_3:14

« Last Edit: October 03, 2019, 08:51:02 PM by Wanda »
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Wanda

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Re: Persecution
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2019, 08:56:30 PM »

Here's the first scripture listed.

Matthew 5:10

10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

With substituded definitions

Matthew 5:10

10 Blessed are those who press on to reach the goal because of righteousness,
 for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Or

Blessed are those who eagerly seek after righteousness for their's is the kingdom of heaven.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Persecution
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2019, 12:43:36 PM »

Wanda, you may well be right that that is a better translation of that verse.  I say so because Jesus is preaching/teaching his disciples.  I noticed a few months ago that what we know as "the beatitudes" are split between "blessed are THEY" and "blessed are YOU".  In the previous "chapter", multitudes from all over were pressing towards Jesus and he retreated with his disciples to the mountain.  I think this is the "they" Jesus was talking ABOUT, which spiritually signifies the world He came to save.  In talking about "THEM", he said "Blessed are THEY which hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled."  Is there a spiritual scriptural match to that statement?  I think so...in Romans. "...the creation is groaning...". 

I do NOT mean to imply that the "YOU" are not subject to harassment, persecution, insults, put to flight, etc.  They will haul YOU out of the synagogue and kill YOU thinking they are doing God a favor.  Stephen and Paul faced genuine persecution (and Saul dished it out as well).  But I think we should let each scripture say what it says and not always conflate the meanings.     
« Last Edit: October 04, 2019, 12:50:26 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Persecution
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2019, 01:04:20 PM »

Ray stated that persecution can only come from others. Would that include Satan?

In my life only a few times have someone mocked me for my believes. It was only words and they only have the power to hurt if you allow it. I think Ray considered people attaching him for his faith as persecution. Somehow I see it as having to be much harsher.

Doug

People lied about Ray, set traps for him, and did other things that I think count as "persecution" beyond attacking his "faith".  At least some of the ones I know about didn't come from those in the regular churches. 

There may be a division of labor between Satan and his ministers, but I'm not too bothered with it.  There has probably never been a time someone has mocked me for my beliefs, but that may be because I am not "mockable".  I'm often wrong, and (when graced) open to change, but I don't hold these things solely in my head...they are burned into my life, most of which was lived before I knew any of them.  Hurtful words don't cut that deep, and I have much bigger fish to fry than defending myself.       
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Musterseed

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Re: Persecution
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2019, 02:02:41 PM »

Hello family
I am doing a study on Speaking in tongues and came across this statement by Ray.

Quote”

Remember that it is usage that determines the real meaning of words.Dictionaries and the study
of etymology can be big helps , but in the end ,it is the usage that gives us the best definition.
And the more and different ways that we can see a word used, the more precisely we can see it’s
true meaning.
 Thank you everyone for your definitions. I went through them all , but I noticed one in particular
from Heidi’s post that caught my eye. Quote” from the OX Dictionary.” The VICTIMS of religious
persecution. I did a search on the word victim from Vocabulary.com and this is the result.

Pain, physically and mentally, to feel pain, to suffer, to endure, affliction, etc. We know all the
meaning of this words.
The meanings in scriptures can go on and on and on, ie., downfall ,loss of power prosperity
or status, casting down, dismay.

Job said to his friends.
“For now ye are nothing, ye see my casting down and are afraid.”
 
Christ was persecuted but He was not a victim. He did the Fathers will as commishened.
As will God’s called and chosen.

We suffer for Christ, and rejoice in the honour to suffer in His name. We do this with love,
loyalty, devotion and the faith of Christ, we obey all commands in Spirit and Truth.

So many scriptures come to mind
Matt.5:48– Therefore you shall be perfect.
2Sam.22:33– God is my strength and power and He makes my way perfect.

Long- suffering comes to mind .God would not put us through anything He did not go through
Himself. Thank you Lord.  You are perfect.

In Christ
Pamela 💕
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Wanda

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Re: Persecution
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2019, 03:56:04 PM »

Quote
Wanda, you may well be right that that is a better translation of that verse.  I say so because Jesus is preaching/teaching his disciples.  I noticed a few months ago that what we know as "the beatitudes" are split between "blessed are THEY" and "blessed are YOU
". 

This is what I see too Dave, but think that could have clouded my judgment, and I got careless. Further into this study I don't think the alternate translation fits the point Jesus was making with "They and You", if we read both verse 10 and 11,  and take the narritive of Matt.5  into consideration

10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

Also, I checked all translations with the exception of JMNT which  is why I started to question myself and what Jesus was really  saying. First in verse 10 Jesus is saying "They" will be persecuted, and continues that point with "You" will be persecuted in verse 11.

Matt. 5: JMNT

 10  "Those being ones having been pressed forward, chased or persecuted for the sake of fairness, equity,[covenant] relationships or justice which comes from the Way pointed out[are] happy and blessed because the reign of the heavens continually belongs to them (or: for the kingdom of the heavens is continuing to pertain to them; because the reign and sovereign activities from the atmosphere and sky is being a source in and for them.

Compare  the above translation with verse ten, with the alternate translation.

10 Blessed are those who press on to reach the goal because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Although this didn't influence me, the above translation is similar to what Paul says in Philippians 3: and is  clearly not what Jesus was teaching in verse 10.

14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Quote
But I think we should let each scripture say what it says and not always conflate the meanings.

Good advice.     


 


« Last Edit: October 05, 2019, 03:58:56 PM by Wanda »
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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12
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