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[Dave in Tenn]

A couple of thoughts from reading the thread.

1.  "We shall not all sleep, BUT we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.".  This includes those who "sleep".  Given that there is no knowledge in death, this changing in a moment is just as true for those who sleep as for those who "shall not".  Was Paul preaching foolishness when he hoped for the time when his change comes or did he lose that hope upon dying?  Who is changed first?  The "dead in Christ", or those that are alive and remain?

2.  Is there really a correctly, decently translated scripture that says there will be people who never die?  It is appointed unto man once to die.  Given that those who are alive and remain will be changed, and after those who sleep... maybe there is something more lofty about "dying" than Churchianity has taught us.  It's no second-class resurrection, and no disappointment that by the will of God "we've" missed the "lucky" generation who are alive and remain.

Personally, I don't expect to be alive at His appearing.  And that's okay with me, because He has already appeared to me in Spirit and "resurrected" me from death to faith.  And to me, that tops everything.

[AwesomeSavior]

Dave:

Yes, it is appointed unto man once to die. However, Ray would also mention that the sum of His word is truth.

As an example of using Scripture both ways (natural and spiritual), we know that Romans 1:26-27 condemns homosexuality, but... is there a deeper, spiritual meaning? Yes.

Therefore, look at 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 through the same lens of both interpretations, the spiritual (as you have mentioned), and the natural. In the natural, verses 15 and 17 in particular are a double witness to people being alive when the Lord returns.

I will be 56 years old next month. I can tell you personally that I am not planning to die before His return.

Dean

[Musterseed]

Hey Dean
Did you notice my post in the thread updates.
I quoted Rays explanation of 1 Thes:4:15-16. 🤔
Those not only alive but surviving changing conditions.
What are those conditions as we venture further into
our journey? God has cut short the time for the sake of
the elect, because of great tribulation and the conditions
of the earth. The rapture paper explains a lot.

Heb.12:27-28… REMOVING ( caps Rays) those things that are shaken
that those things that cannot be shaken may REMAIN….accepting
an unshakable Kingdom.

The parables of the Sower and the Parable of the Net .

John 17:15… didn’t our Lord clearly pray to His Father
“ I am not asking that thou shouldest be taking them AWAY ( cap’s Rays)
OUT OF THE WORLD, but that thou shouldest be keeping them from
the wicked one.

As in the days of Noah, Noah and his family remained on the earth.
The good are retained and kept.

This Rapture Paper along with The Myth of Free Will, for my understanding are of Rays most excellent works. They are all amazing of course but I study these two the most.

We are groaning, longing to be dressed in our habitation which is out of heaven..

God Bless you all.


Nevertheless , whether we live or die , we are the Lords. Thank the Lord.

[Dave in Tenn]

I'm not denying either the Spiritual or the literal, though certitude in many matters eludes me.  And that's ok with me too.  Whatever measure of faith and understanding I have was given to me.  It simply is. Not. Up. To. Me. to determine His steps. 

Let's assume you are correct in your assumption.  What I'm asking is--of what particular benefit is it to be "alive and remaining"? 

[indianabob]

Valid point Dave.
The great majority of saints are long gone and yet their change will seem to come immediately after they lost consciousness.
I believe that Paul was reassuring the saints of his day that they would not lose their loved ones who had already died in faith. Plus it seems that Paul was expecting the return to be quite soon, even in his normal life time.
Bob

[AK4]

Sorry I need to reply more on this because this subject is what I live by and have thought about countlessly...being part of the generation that will never ever die/how to address Jesus in the resurrection. I have lots of thoughts on this and will try not to get to longwinded lol

Dave

"Was Paul preaching foolishness when he hoped for the time when his change comes or did he lose that hope upon dying?  Who is changed first?  The "dead in Christ", or those that are alive and remain?"---Dave, well the scriptures say the dead will rise before those living shall be changed---Ooohhh that just made me think that that will also be a sign along with the coming of Jesus in the clouds and the sounding of the trump. We will see the dead rise, probably amazed and then boom we are changed in an instant. Sorry I went on a tangent there lol.  But was Paul preaching foolishness? You know I thought about how Paul had to feel being given this prophecy, having that hope that he will part of that generation that will never ever die then later in life realizing that he wasn't going to be one of the ones who fulfill that prophecy.  Its really depressing just thinking about it that way but he kept the faith and that's the way I look at. And honestly it would be a huge disappointment to me if I didn't make it. Ive prayed to the Father about this many many times.

 "Is there really a correctly, decently translated scripture that says there will be people who never die?"---That's why I think 1 Cor 15:51 is so clear for this never ever dying/seeing Jesus return with the clouds. Its so clear like Phil 2:13 is for no freewill. I personally haven't found another verse so clear as 1 Cor 15:51 but there are lots of places in scriptures that allude to it. Its kind of like what Ray says in the lake of fire series about "seeing the invisible". When I read the scriptures, there are verses that just pops out on this subject where Im seeing the invisible that matches up with "we shall not all sleep" even though its not directly saying it.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

See right in there. We wait for His Son from heaven---well the ones alive are waiting too and--who rescues us from the wrath to come---well those people are alive when they are rescued. That lines up perfectly with we shall not all sleep but be changed.

[AK4]

Let's assume you are correct in your assumption.  What I'm asking is--of what particular benefit is it to be "alive and remaining"?

I see lots of benefits of it personally. I really like the idea of being part of the ones fulfilling that prophecy. I think there will be a feeling of relief and justification and jubilee etc etc and that we will be a GREAT witness along with those resurrected of Gods power and His plan. We will be able to talk to those who we are going to save like "look what God did to me...Im 200 years old and look like a teenager. You can trust me that my God will do the same for you if you listen to what we are telling you."

Hmmm just had a thought there...will we be like the apostles of their time with powers to perform miracles and one of those miracles is showing those who are to be saved that we were given immortality? Hmm just a thought

Anyway I see lots of benefits of it. Even like teaching those who need to be saved and believe in hell and that the lake of fire is literally the second death. No we can show them that no the lake of fire is not a literal 2nd death, look at us, are we dead we can ask them.

[Musterseed]

Listen to the audio on you tube The day and hour prophecy. Let me know what you think please.

Also I have a question.

Why would God have to shorten the days of tribulation for the sake of the elect ?

A good read is LOfF Pt.C. RE, eonian life, and dying

And more specific scriptures about this are in the Rapture Study, beginning just above
THE RAPTURE OF THE WICKED.     ( caps Rays)

Quoting Ray here from the Rapture Paper, “ It was always God’s intention for the righteous to
REMAIN on the earth.

Then he quotes scriptures to confirm it.

I don’t have an opinion. I have been studying this for quite a while now but this is what I see so far.
I just want to share and get your thoughts if you like.

In Christ , Pamela❤️

[Dave in Tenn]

Anthony, again you are repeating the first recorded lie of Satan.  Everybody dies.  Everybody.  This mortal MUST put on immortality and this corruption MUST put on incorruption.

So what do we do with this statement that those who are "alive and remain" are changed?  For my part, it makes me look at "dying" in a new and "higher" light.  There is a difference between "dying" and "being dead".  The latter is likened to "sleep".  The former, I believe, is spiritually synonymous with "change".  Those He has chosen have plenty of dying to do but until this "body of death" gives way, they are not yet fit to rule because they have not fully followed the Lord, who died and was raised.

There are very likely other ways to understand this, and I'm content to let others have theirs--as long as it does not repeat or endorse Satan's first recorded lie, even if it is done carelessly.

I try to temper my imagination in these matters.  All I care about is that there will be a few who are "born of the Spirit" and, thus, are bearing the fruit of the Spirit.  Nothing else matters to me, and if the next age resembles the vanities of this age, then Dear God, please leave me dead.

Check out the materials Pamela mentioned.  I'm on my phone and can't post a link, but the LOF part entitled "The origins of endless punishment"  is Good Reading.  Take care.

[AK4]

Anthony, again you are repeating the first recorded lie of Satan.  Everybody dies.  Everybody.  This mortal MUST put on immortality and this corruption MUST put on incorruption.

So what do we do with this statement that those who are "alive and remain" are changed?  For my part, it makes me look at "dying" in a new and "higher" light.  There is a difference between "dying" and "being dead".  The latter is likened to "sleep".  The former, I believe, is spiritually synonymous with "change".  Those He has chosen have plenty of dying to do but until this "body of death" gives way, they are not yet fit to rule because they have not fully followed the Lord, who died and was raised.

There are very likely other ways to understand this, and I'm content to let others have theirs--as long as it does not repeat or endorse Satan's first recorded lie, even if it is done carelessly.

I try to temper my imagination in these matters.  All I care about is that there will be a few who are "born of the Spirit" and, thus, are bearing the fruit of the Spirit.  Nothing else matters to me, and if the next age resembles the vanities of this age, then Dear God, please leave me dead.

Check out the materials Pamela mentioned.  I'm on my phone and can't post a link, but the LOF part entitled "The origins of endless punishment"  is Good Reading.  Take care.

Wait what??? How so? Is repeating 1 Cor 15:51 repeating satans lie?

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Is that repeating the lie? It clearly says it right there that there will be a generation of people that will not die. They will be living then changed. The whole chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians is all about the resurrection, the order, bodies, the false teachings etc etc.

Even Ray taught this. For those who will be partakers in this "we shall not all sleep", they must die but dying to self, judge yourself now so that you don't have to be judged. He said or better stated he repeated the verse "it is appointed unto men once to die then judgement" then he went on to explain there is those who are dead but living like when Jesus said let the dead bury their dead---he explained that those people (we are those people before coming to Christ) are spiritually dead and so we, you, have to die from being that person and thus you are appointed once to die, that is your death. Then judgment--judge yourself lest you will be judged.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality

The mortal must put on immortality.  That's not repeating satans lie. Satans lie is that you were born immortal. Paul is saying you are mortal and must be given immortality. Two totally different ideas.

Dave, this subject is deep and fascinating to ponder on. But it is an idea/theory/prophecy that no other religion has. Where in Gods teaching, death means death and so when you die, you die. So God says when He returns not only will those who died be brought back to life but those living will be changed to live forever too. No other religion/teaching that I know teaches that.

(Lol I just reread  that line "satans lie is that you were born immortal"---born immortal---talk about a contradiction lol)

[AK4]

Listen to the audio on you tube The day and hour prophecy. Let me know what you think please.

Also I have a question.

Why would God have to shorten the days of tribulation for the sake of the elect ?

Why would God shorten those days? I think there is a clue, maybe a flat out statement...

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. kjv

Now the NIV
22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

So no one would survive??? I take that 2 ways. 1. Its to save the elect and the rest be killed. But I don't think that one fits with the rest of scripture. 2. Its to save the elect and on behalf of the elect (for the elects sake) the rest of the people will be spared/saved.

for the sake of
διὰ (dia)
Preposition
Strong's Greek 1223: A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through.

Now I never noticed that. So through the acts (maybe prayers) of the elect, those days will be shortened.  Interesting.

And more specific scriptures about this are in the Rapture Study, beginning just above
THE RAPTURE OF THE WICKED.     ( caps Rays)

Quoting Ray here from the Rapture Paper, “ It was always God’s intention for the righteous to
REMAIN on the earth.

Then he quotes scriptures to confirm it.

I don’t have an opinion. I have been studying this for quite a while now but this is what I see so far.
I just want to share and get your thoughts if you like.

I think we are on the same page here. It was eye opening when Ray pointed out that if there was to be a rapture as taught by Babylon, the scriptures pretty much show that the rapture will be of the wicked. Listen to this audio of Rays. It also fits how if there was to be a rapture (as they teach it), it most likely would be of the wicked

August 6th, 2006 Hell Does Not Exist
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Hell_08-06-2006.mp3

[AK4]

Hey Dean
Did you notice my post in the thread updates.
I quoted Rays explanation of 1 Thes:4:15-16. 🤔
Those not only alive but surviving changing conditions.
What are those conditions as we venture further into
our journey? God has cut short the time for the sake of
the elect, because of great tribulation and the conditions
of the earth. The rapture paper explains a lot.

Heb.12:27-28… REMOVING ( caps Rays) those things that are shaken
that those things that cannot be shaken may REMAIN….accepting
an unshakable Kingdom.

The parables of the Sower and the Parable of the Net .

John 17:15… didn’t our Lord clearly pray to His Father
“ I am not asking that thou shouldest be taking them AWAY ( cap’s Rays)
OUT OF THE WORLD, but that thou shouldest be keeping them from
the wicked one.

As in the days of Noah, Noah and his family remained on the earth.
The good are retained and kept.

This Rapture Paper along with The Myth of Free Will, for my understanding are of Rays most excellent works. They are all amazing of course but I study these two the most.

We are groaning, longing to be dressed in our habitation which is out of heaven..

God Bless you all.


Nevertheless , whether we live or die , we are the Lords. Thank the Lord.

Niiice catches. Very nice. And I'm still thinking on your premise. .the conditions...basically how does God turn flesh to immortal instantly..going by His laws of science etc.   . Thats something I haven't thought of in the way you present it. I really likes. Idk what's your theory?

[Musterseed]

Did you not read LOF Origins of endless punishment? Ray explains and answers Do believer’s already possess eonian life?  Do believers in Christ never die? Believers do not die for the eon , etc.

This is just one excerpt but you should read all of it . I read over and over and over paying
attention to all the word’s especially Rays caps .

Now then I say brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God,
neither does corruption inherit  incorruption . Behold , I show you a mystery,we shall
not all sleep.(according to Christiandom,no one will ever sleep. They contradict by saying there is no such thing as sleep in death, but they lie.) Psalm 13:3 , Consider and hear me O my God,,,,,
less I sleep the sleep OF DEATH) but we shall all be changed.[WHEN]?  This is so important.
When shall we be changed? At the instant that all believers die? NO.,,,,, in a moment, in the twinkling
of an eye, at the last trump, ( then and only then and AT NO OTHER TIME IN HISTORY) for the
trumpet shall sound, and the dead ( the dead, mind you, not the living, but the dead) shall be
raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

at the resurrection we will be given incorruption and immortality which means deathlessness.

John 11:24 I know that he shall he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


The last day IS the resurrection from the dead.

 vs.25-26….Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead ( margin reads May die) , yet shall he live: And whosoever lives and believes in me
shall never die, ( GK. Should by no means be dying for the eon) Believe you this?

This KJV scripture contradicts. ,,,,,,John 11:26 is a translation in error and the one used by
theologians to pervert the word of God and to continue Satans lie of you shall NOT surely die.

BTW, o

This is I think what Dave was talking about, correct me if I misunderstand Dave.

If someone believes in Christ and then DIES, yet shall he live, contradicts
If someone believes in Christ he will never die.

Ray,, am I going to fast for anyone?😁

Please read John 20-24,,, the conversation Jesus had with Peter about John.

I do not have a theory about how our change will come AK4 , I just know it will be at the last day.
Well, when is the last day? At Christ’s coming in the day of the Lord. Paul’s epistles of the Thessalonians
is quite informative and the rapture paper explains about the elect REMAINING UNTIL.

Ok so that’s enough for now my old fingers are tired.

O and since Gods laws work in the entirety of the universe, the laws of thermodynamics are
working on all matter. Ray said the earth is very old . Everything physical is in decay.
I did a little study on entropy. Form what I understand, every physical is passing away.

To quote Ray,,, it’s getting , older ,colder ,and darker. This to me is also a spiritual statement.
Another quote from Ray “ Birth is a miracle, but death also is a miracle.


Something just came to my mind. If we are to follow in the very footsteps of Jesus,
and we are.,,,, Jesus said  “ Follow Me” ,,,,,,Jesus physically died.

God Bless you all , our faith rests in the power of God.💕

[Porter]

Ray also said that Paul and the disciples believed Jesus would appear and change them in their lifetime, but obviously it didn't happen.

DISCIPLES THOUGHT JESUS WOULD COME IN THEIR LIFETIME

I Thess. 4:15  For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

Paul said, “we who are alive and remain.” Now you could say he’s just saying “we,” whoever the we are at that time of His coming. But no, it sounds like he’s saying, we right now here. Those of us that are alive until His coming, we won’t actually go to sleep we’ll just be changed. You know, he’ll come and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we will rise to meet the Lord in the air. 

I Cor. 15:51  Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep…
 
Paul thought Christ would come before he would go to sleep(die).
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,5815.0.html

[indianabob]

Valid point  Porter,

In my understanding...if I am alive at Christ's return my flesh body will die and will be instantly replaced with a NEW body of the manner of Christ's body. In other words by flesh will not disappear from view it will just lie down and begin to decay.
My spirit, my mind, my thoughts will be contained in my new spiritual body and I will not know that my flesh is dying or dead or in the sleep of death. Of course the term sleep of death requires that a person awaken and of course with the same body restored. Whereas in my case I will get a new spiritual body and not a restored flesh body.

Now the next point (corrections welcome) is that those in the judgement who are the goats and not the sheep, will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the "second death". Since spirit cannot die and possesses deathlessness, then is appears that those sent to the Lake of fire, the second death, necessarily had to be resurrected flesh and blood.
=
Does the above explanation make sense? Is it scriptural?
Bob

[Porter]

Hi Bob,
I know when the "once to die" and "after this the judgment" is applied to the Elect, it's 100 percent spiritual. I'm also 100 percent sure the "after this the judgment" also called the "second death" is also spiritual when applied to the "goats" that are cast into the lake of fire.

I'm just not sure about the "goats" being mortal before their judgment. I personally do not see any problem with the "goats" being resurrected immortal and then dying a second spiritual death.

By the way, I'm not completely sure if Ray was correct in his interpretation of I Thess. 4:15 and I Cor. 15:51, as I see it as words of spirit. Could I be wrong? Yes, totally, but I'm not too worried about it.

[indianabob]

Hi again Porter,

Thanks for your reply.
Please let me try to clear up my view a little.
In my understanding...everyone who is not elect goes to the white throne judgement or evaluation of their past lives.
At that time if their name is found in the book of life they are made immortal.
Made immortal by God's grace and not by anything they have done to earn it.
So keep in mind that these folks didn't know their fate until they were resurrected. Right??
Most of them had never heard of a Messiah or a Christ.
They died thinking that there was nothing else. Once you are dead that is it. You only live once they would say.
That knowledge was only given to the children of Abraham the Israelites. Right??
So don't they have to be resurrected as mortal to face their evaluation?
God will forgive them, true, but they did not know that when they died.
Also how long will the evaluation/judgement take? The Bible doesn't say, but God is gracious and will I think grant time to understand all the details at that time.
Keep in mind that this is NOT a time of condemnation it is a time of education for most who have never had a bible or been in a church congregation. Of course we all are condemned to die...until we are given forgiveness by God.
If their name is not found in the book of life they are killed or die again which is the lake of fire.
So then how can those not found in the book of life be killed if they are already immortal or deathless?

There are more details of course, but please ask specific questions if you want.
Thanks for your patience with my views.
Indiana Bob

[Musterseed]

I just put Hitler in the search engine and # 14 Transcript,,, Physical or Spiritual
resurrection bodies for the wicked and non believers came up.

Ray pretty well explains this whole discussion that we have been discussing.

We diligently dig for His treasures and He leads us to the field.😁

All Glory to God

[Porter]

So then how can those not found in the book of life be killed if they are already immortal or deathless?

The way I understand it is, the second death/lake of fire represents the death of carnality, aka the beast within. Consider that Satan is a spirit, despite the fact, he possesses a carnal mind that needs to die.

 

[AK4]

I don't know how you guys are interpreting what I'm saying as if it's anywhere close to the immortal soul doctrine. I'm not saying the elect was born with an immortal soul or whatever.  I clearly said I'm not by saying Satan's lie is you have a immortal soul but what Paul is saying in 1 Cor 15 is that the mortal, who by definition can't be or have an immortal anything, will become immortal. Think of it like someone was essentially born to die but yet was spared.

The generation that fulfills that prophecy, and that has to be prophecy, won't die even though at first, they know like every human really knows, we all are supposed to die.

I don't know.  Maybe lm not being clear enough in what I'm saying