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[Rene]

"we believe the truth because we ARE saved".
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It is not that we are saved because we first believed.
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When God decided to give us belief He first gave us salvation. Each in their own order.
Free for nothing.

Bob,

Getting SAVED is a PROCESS.  You may want to take the time to read the transcript from Ray's bible study entitled "How Hard is Getting Saved?" because what you stated above is in total contradiction.

Here is the link to the transcript and an excerpt from this study:

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,3849.0.html     Transcript

"Acts 2:21 MKJV
21 And it shall be that everyone who shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Am I denying that scripture? No, I’m not denying that scripture. What I’m saying is Christendom doesn’t know what that scripture means. Maybe many of you don’t know what that scripture means. But I’m here to tell you that if you do call upon the name of the Lord, you shall be saved. Notice, it is in the future tense. It doesn’t say you “have been” saved: if you believe you “have been already” saved. You’ll read that in my new paper too (Fools, Hypocrites, Snakes). I’ve talked about this already but here I bring it all out, I show you every scripture…there is no scripture in the bible that says anybody has ever been saved while they were still alive. You know that? There is no such thing as “being saved” in the past tense, while you are still alive.

There’s a reason why Christ says, “They’ll hate you and persecute you and everything, but he that endures until the END has “already been” saved….no, you endure to the end and then you SHALL be saved.” You are not saved, unless and until, we come up in the first resurrection. That is the only proof that anyone will have that they are saved, if you come up in the first resurrection. If you don’t, then you are not saved; it’s just axiomatic, if you don’t come up in that resurrection"

[Porter]

Porter,

So when God makes me immortal or undying it is a finished work. It is all clear sailing for me for ever after.

Immortality is great and all, but I see it as merely a side benefit of the real prize of winning Christ. I'm not ignorant of the fact, that this might be an unpopular view, but I'm totally fine with that.

Mistakes, misunderstandings and ignorance are easier to admit and accept as I realize the flawed state and condition of my character - hence the need for the Second Man, the New Man, so the old man and his flaws can die. Like Ray said, this is a process that takes a lifetime.

What we have now is merely a "down payment" for the promise of the redemption of our souls. The finished work is that of Christ's sacrifice on the cross for the atonement of our sins. All that is left to do, is to get the sin out of the sinner, as Ray would say. I die daily, but I'm not there yet. It's like that verse from John.

Joh 3:30  He must increase, but I must decrease.

I do wonder, though, is it possible to win Christ in this lifetime? Is this what Paul meant?

2Ti 4:7  I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8  Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Paul endured to the end, his old man died, and Christ lived His life through Paul. It sounds like Jesus will give Paul a reward for being a good and faithful servant in this life. So, what is the goal, and when is it accomplished?

[AK4]

I forget who said something along the lines of what benefit would it be if you were the generation that fulfills 1 Cor 15:51 prophecy. Well "I " stumbled upon this Rev 20:6, a very direct answer from the scriptures of the benefits of being one of the ones that fulfilled that prophecy

Rev 20:6

King James Bible
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Then whatelse does the scriptures say we will do? Ray revealed many many many...did i say many....many scriptures showing what we will be doing, if we are part of that generation.  We are saving the world, with Jesus the scriptures say!!

[AK4]

I started listening and following along again to the lake of fire series. Ray mentions Rev 20:6 along with many other verses how 1 Cor 15:51 can/will be true.

There's a lot we have to do

[SMITTY7000]

In Zechariah 14, which is a chapter devoted to the “Day of the Lord”, there is a verse [:12] that talks about the plague that the Lord smites the people with who fought against Jerusalem. Their flesh, eyes and tongue will consume away.  [ H4743 mâqaq maw-kak' A primitive root; to melt; figuratively to flow, dwindle, vanish: - consume away, be corrupt, dissolve, pine away.].                                                                                                                          This seems to me to be the vanishing of the flesh and the entry into the spirit realm.  Here I think that this will be to all, - the good, the bad and the ugly. If our Great God will have all to be saved, I have to ask the question here “What good is the flesh any longer at this point”.  In :15 it even talks about the animal’s flesh having the same plague – [ no flesh animals in the Kingdom _ Isaiah 11:6]
I believe this is the change that all will experience at that time spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:52. In the “twinkling of the eye” will not take very long but this makes me think that the flesh dies here as we move into the spirit realm.
Everyone will be spirit. :53.  It is not alien to my thinking that all could put on immortality here as well.  Is it not God`s will that all will be saved?  Our wonderful Creator has the power to bring all to judgement in their own time according to His timing, with or without immortality.  Will we not all eventually move into eternity after the eons of judgement have passed?

[Porter]

I started listening and following along again to the lake of fire series. Ray mentions Rev 20:6 along with many other verses how 1 Cor 15:51 can/will be true.

There's a lot we have to do

I'm with you on that, Anthony. To be given the honor of helping Jesus save the world really is a big deal. To rule and reign with Christ in His Kingdom is one of the rewards (as well as the reward of immortality) promised to those that overcome and endure to the end while they are still mortal.

The thing I have a problem understanding is whether there is a difference between when Jesus say's "I come quickly" in Revelation, and Paul saying "unto the coming of the Lord" in 1Th 4:15 . Are these two statements spiritual witnesses? Here's a quote from Ray that got me thinking. Hopefully the link works, as I've had some issues linking stuff correctly.

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,5815.0.html
HOW WE GOT THE BIBLE  . . . . . . . . . .  Mobile Conference 2007
I’ll give you a little insight into Revelation. This book is the testimony of Jesus Christ, which is the Spirit of prophecy. 

Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show unto His servants, even the things which must shortly(quickly) come to pass: and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John;
v. 2  who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw.
v. 3  Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.
v. 4  John to the seven churches that are in Asia:
Rev 1:08  I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

He just keeps repeating this over and over. That He existed, He was killed, resurrected and He now is and He will come. Everything in this book is and was and will come, see. To every generation who reads this, He’s coming to you. He came in the pass, He is coming now, He’ll come in the future. How does this happen quickly?

It happens to you when you are born and have grown up big enough to read these pages and God opens up your mind. Then you have just so long to change your life, get rid of the beast, get rid of the carnality in you. That’s got to be done quickly, because at best we live, you know… well some of us live longer, but you live to maybe 80. If I live to be 130, my life would just now be half over with. Think about it. 

So Jesus Christ is, was and will be in every generation, that was and is now and will be. This is a work in progress. This is about US. 

Why would we have a book (Revelation) that we print and print and waste paper for thousands of years, about something that’s going to come in never never land? Why do we want that? Who cares? They say, ‘oh that’s for that last generation, they need to know it.’

Listen when they are closing the lid, it’s your last generation, you know. I don’t care if you were born in the 300’s or 800’s or 1600’s or 1900’s, that’s all you get, that short period of time. So these thing have to be done quickly.-----------

Another thing, I don't believe Jesus ever really left, at least not in the way the Church teaches. I believe Jesus simply disappeared, by becoming invisible again, as is the nature of spirit. Jesus is here now, with you and me always. However, when He does re-appear, that's when we become exactly like Him. Maybe that's what Paul and the other Apostles meant.

You can see why I'm having a hard time understanding and reconciling this literal concept of "the return of Jesus" vs the spiritual concept of "I come quickly". I think about these two concepts a lot, for years even. Perhaps it's not a big a deal as I think it is, but that it's much simpler than I'm making it out to be. Help lol.

[Porter]

In Zechariah 14, which is a chapter devoted to the “Day of the Lord”, there is a verse [:12] that talks about the plague that the Lord smites the people with who fought against Jerusalem. Their flesh, eyes and tongue will consume away.  [ H4743 mâqaq maw-kak' A primitive root; to melt; figuratively to flow, dwindle, vanish: - consume away, be corrupt, dissolve, pine away.].                                                                                                                          This seems to me to be the vanishing of the flesh and the entry into the spirit realm.  Here I think that this will be to all, - the good, the bad and the ugly. If our Great God will have all to be saved, I have to ask the question here “What good is the flesh any longer at this point”.  In :15 it even talks about the animal’s flesh having the same plague – [ no flesh animals in the Kingdom _ Isaiah 11:6]
I believe this is the change that all will experience at that time spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:52. In the “twinkling of the eye” will not take very long but this makes me think that the flesh dies here as we move into the spirit realm.
Everyone will be spirit. :53.  It is not alien to my thinking that all could put on immortality here as well.  Is it not God`s will that all will be saved?  Our wonderful Creator has the power to bring all to judgement in their own time according to His timing, with or without immortality.  Will we not all eventually move into eternity after the eons of judgement have passed?

Interesting find Smitty! I was thinking something similar last night before going to bed, but I was thinking about it in a spiritual sense. I even asked myself, "what does it matter if we are literal flesh and blood"? Isn't the "down payment" we receive now, a taste of the spiritual life of Christ that comes from the realm of spirit?

Don't get me wrong, I look forward to a time when I can never die or get sick again. I really look forward to a time when I can see that my former earthly family is with Christ. 

[ralph]

Very interesting indeed.  Your comment brought something to mind.  Just thinking out loud here.  Is it our physical flesh that makes us carnal or is it our minds? We think about it first and then we do it.  According to the Word of God, to think on something carnal is a sin.  Hate someone in your heart and you are a murderer.   Lust after someone in your heart and you commit adultery. Christ was a physical man for a time and he was perfect in that flesh.  Satan is not a physical being and is the most carnal creature that God ever created. 

In Zechariah 14, which is a chapter devoted to the “Day of the Lord”, there is a verse [:12] that talks about the plague that the Lord smites the people with who fought against Jerusalem. Their flesh, eyes and tongue will consume away.  [ H4743 mâqaq maw-kak' A primitive root; to melt; figuratively to flow, dwindle, vanish: - consume away, be corrupt, dissolve, pine away.].                                                                                                                          This seems to me to be the vanishing of the flesh and the entry into the spirit realm.  Here I think that this will be to all, - the good, the bad and the ugly. If our Great God will have all to be saved, I have to ask the question here “What good is the flesh any longer at this point”.  In :15 it even talks about the animal’s flesh having the same plague – [ no flesh animals in the Kingdom _ Isaiah 11:6]
I believe this is the change that all will experience at that time spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:52. In the “twinkling of the eye” will not take very long but this makes me think that the flesh dies here as we move into the spirit realm.
Everyone will be spirit. :53.  It is not alien to my thinking that all could put on immortality here as well.  Is it not God`s will that all will be saved?  Our wonderful Creator has the power to bring all to judgement in their own time according to His timing, with or without immortality.  Will we not all eventually move into eternity after the eons of judgement have passed?

[Porter]

That's it ralph. I see the quote from Zechariah 14 as a type of judgment resulting in the vanishing of the fleshy carnal mind. I'm just not completely sure if it represents the judgment of the Elect now in this age, or judgment of the wicked at the Great White Throne. Maybe the phrase "the day of the Lord" is key.

 Is my literal flesh the problem? Which gets saved first? My mind or my body? And when does it get saved first? I know my body isn't being saved right now, but possibly my mind is being transformed to conform to the mind of Christ. I guess I just won't know till the end.

I'm paraphrasing here, but Ray once said something like - "do good, not for the promise of reward or to avoid punishment, but do good because it's the right thing to do".

Not saying you're wrong Smitty, because I actually think you're right to say "This seems to me to be the vanishing of the flesh and entry into the spirit realm". I can't think of better news than this.