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Author Topic: Big Israel  (Read 863 times)

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Dennis Vogel

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Big Israel
« on: April 12, 2022, 09:38:47 PM »

I'm breaking my own rule by posting a link to another site. But I found this very interesting and they may be onto something. Time will tell.

This is Tru News and they do not know what we know (they believe in Hell) but share our disdain for TV preachers and are not fans of The State of Israel which the 'church' lauds, e.g., John Hagee: https://israelallies.org/israels-top-50-christian-allies

FYI, The State of Israel is not a friend of the United States (Jeffrey Epstein).

One hour video and they talk about politics the last 5 minutes which you can ignore. But they have not supported Trump or Biden in the past that I know of but I don't watch all their videos.

https://www.trunews.com/stream/ecumenical-alliance-seeks-to-declare-kiev-as-new-jerusalem

Please do not take this as an invatation to talk politics. That rule still applies. But if you know a reason why this is nonsense please post it.
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indianabob

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Re: Big Israel
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2022, 01:31:58 PM »

Hi Dennis,
Watched the video and found it hard to follow.
My first thought is that our Lord Jesus will return to the mount of olives and that will not change.
There will be a great army destroyed in the plain of Megiddo by super natural power for all to witness.
So whatever happens in Ukraine in the lead up to the final days is all speculation.
Whether the politicians will try to establish a new location for the abomination of desolation to set up office is a possibility I suppose, but it will not hold for long since Christ Jesus will do God's will and not that of the human powers that rule temporarily at the end time.
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AwesomeSavior

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Re: Big Israel
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2022, 06:36:08 PM »

Dennis:

I would add one word to a sentence you wrote:

FYI, The [Deep] State of Israel is not a friend of the United States (Jeffrey Epstein).

Dean
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Big Israel
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2022, 07:48:01 PM »

Hi Dennis,
Watched the video and found it hard to follow.
My first thought is that our Lord Jesus will return to the mount of olives and that will not change.
There will be a great army destroyed in the plain of Megiddo by super natural power for all to witness.
So whatever happens in Ukraine in the lead up to the final days is all speculation.
Whether the politicians will try to establish a new location for the abomination of desolation to set up office is a possibility I suppose, but it will not hold for long since Christ Jesus will do God's will and not that of the human powers that rule temporarily at the end time.

Israel and Jerusalem play a roll in prophecy which makes this interesting to me, but for some reason the news is not talking about it.

A quick search finds:  https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/08/opinions/jerusalem-israel-evangelicals-end-times-butler-bass-opinion/index.html
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ZekeSr

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Re: Big Israel
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2022, 03:43:08 PM »

Yes, I agree with Bob that it’s hard to keep the whole podcast in perspective, as they cover a lot of interesting speculation backed by what appears to be a mountain of tangible as well as circumstantial evidence. The situation in Ukraine, at the moment, has certainly affected the world in a way that I haven’t seen since the Middle East. And now to see the possibility of a direct connection is astonishing.  And yes, Dennis. Time will tell.
Quite frankly, I’m not a fan of Israel or the Palestinians for reasons that I don’t think I should discuss here. But, for me, one of the interesting takeaways is that I’m reminded of how the state of Israel’s existence in the middle east has been deemed a pariah by the very entities that pretty much created it there after WWII. My-my how things have changed. I remember, as a youngster in the very early sixties, watching the movie Exodus—Hollywood’s book-based tribute to the Jewish struggle to “return to their homeland.” It had a powerful musical score that contained the lyrics, “This land is mine, God gave this land to me.” It was a big sympathy grabbing hit at the time.
It may be quite true that the secular Jews would be willing to accept a New Jerusalem in Ukraine, if that is even possible. But the orthodoxy would never go for it. If forced out of the holy land, they would certainly look to return again.

Mike
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indianabob

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Re: Big Israel
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2022, 01:26:25 PM »

Thanks Mike,
We agree.
Bob
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zvezda

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Re: Big Israel
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2022, 12:04:44 PM »

Ray wrote who is Israel TODAY in the towers paper and it's not Ukraine.

https://bible-truths.com/towers.htm

    "And it shall come to pass, if you shall hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord your God, to observe and to do all His commandments which I command you this day, that the Lord your God will set you on high ABOVE ALL NATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    And all these blessings shall come on you, and overtake you, if you shall hearken unto the voice of the lord your God. Blessed shall you be IN THE CITY..." (Deut. 28:1-3).

Israel was NEVER "...on high above all nations of the earth !" And why was that? Because Israel could not "hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord." Their greatest glory was under the rule of Solomon who turned into one of the worst idolaters in Israel's history.

.......

So, who is Egypt and Sodom TODAY? And who is Israel TODAY?

Is the Israel of all these major prophecies (foretold to happen before the coming of God's government to this earth), the handful of racially mixed tenants of the State of Israel today? Give me a break.

Is the Jerusalem in prophecy inside today's Israel? Don't take my word for it

    " And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified" (Rev. 11:8).

And where was our Lord crucified? In literal Sodom? NO. In literal Egypt? NO. He was crucified in Jerusalem, which is now for prophetic purposes, "SODOM & EGYPT!"

And when does God's word tell us "Jerusalem" (which symbolizes all Judah and all Israel) will be restored?

    "When your sisters, Sodom and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then YOU [Jerusalem, Verse 2] and your daughters shall return to your former estate" (Ezek. 16:55).


Read Deut 28 and see which country you think it's talking about.



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Musterseed

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Re: Big Israel
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2022, 01:53:47 PM »

Deut.8:18—But you shall remember the Lord your God for it is HE THAT GIVES YOU POWER TO GET WEALTH, that He May establish His covenant which He swore unto your fathers as it is this day.

Since it is God who empowers nations to get wealth , just who did God empower the most?
The wealthiest nation on earth must figure into this declaration of God.

God was speaking to Israel when He made this prophecy, therefore other prophecies for the future
that regard Israel must also be making reference to the wealthiest nation, as wealth is one of the most
obvious blessings on that nation. Let’s look at America’s wealth.

But this prophecy is not just about American prosperity, but also it’s responsibility toward God
for that prosperity, as God also provided a disclaimer in the next verse showing the consequences
should we turn from God.

Deut.8:18-19..And it shall be, if you do at all forget the Lord your God and walk after other gods , and serve  them, and worship them , I testify against you this day that
YOU SHALL SURELY PERISH. ( cap’s Rays)

And so we have a prophecy about Gods people , Judah/ Israel ( the Christian nations
Northwestern Europe, Australia, South America, Canada, and AMERICA, who look to
their strength of foreign nations for protection from their enemies. Not that it ever
entered into their minds that some of the nations they have alliances with to protect
them, ARE THEIR ENEMIES. (cap’s Rays )

And they reject the council of God. They go against God’s will in these matters and so
God tells us why our nations will fall.


Isaiah 30:12 13— Therefore thus says the Holy one of Israel, Because ye dispise this
word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay ( rely) Theron: Therefore
this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall , swelling out in a high wall,
whose breaking comes suddenly at an instant.

Isaiah 1:4-6 AH sinful nation ( our nation)  etc.

Last night I was listening to an audio where Ray mentioned something about him writing the
Towers Paper because it was a timely issue, because of terrorism. 

Statement from Ray in the Towers paper.
“ Back in 2002 , I gave a short lecture on 9– 11. I now wish to make public to our readers
the prophetic implications of this colossal disaster , as I believe attested in the book of Isaiah.

Ray says “ I’ll give you the scriptures: you, will have to decide for yourself. “ Amos 3:1-7

In Christ , Pamela

There is much more  to see and hear in this amazing article. God Bless You All

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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Big Israel
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2022, 02:42:39 PM »

Who is this talking about? Any guesses?

Rev 18:15  The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 

Rev 18:16  And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 

Rev 18:17  For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 

Rev 18:18  And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 

Rev 18:19  And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 
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indianabob

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Re: Big Israel
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2022, 12:29:11 AM »

Dennis,
I would suppose that the great city is composed of people who call themselves Christian believers.
People who supposed that they were worshiping God but were worshiping a false Christ.
People who were deceived...by their leaders?
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Big Israel
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2022, 01:34:47 PM »

The US is making ships waiting to unload wait 150 miles out at sea and below the horizon. So not to be seen from land?

Right now there are more ships waiting on the East Coast than the West Coast.

We're not there yet but ...

Cargo ship queues have been pushed 150 miles off the coast of Southern California
https://www.businessinsider.com/cargo-ships-queues-pushed-150-miles-from-southern-california-coast-2021-11
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zvezda

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Re: Big Israel
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2022, 01:23:04 AM »

It's also happening in Shanghai as it has been under strict lockdown since late March
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/shanghai-ship-jam-spells-supply-chain-trouble/ar-AAWHDmt

Marine traffic live map: https://www.marinetraffic.com
Select from the top menu: Explore --> Ports
There are more vessels in Shanghai's port than all other ports, but Shanghai's is the largest in the world

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn4QE0hICGY

Rev 18 is talking about babylon the great. Ray always taught that babylon is the church, but is there more than that?

A "city" in this case is used of a "religion."  See Gal. 4:25-31--Jerusalem in Israel and Jerusalem ABOVE are two women--two RELIGIONS; two CHURCHES."
(source: https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php?topic=6335.0)

Ray also mentioned Rev 18:10 and 18:18 in the towers paper:

    "Alas, alas that GREAT CITY Babylon, that MIGHTY CITY! For in one hour is your judgment come" (Rev. 18:10).

Ironically, the South Tower collapsed in just 56 minutes after being impacted. Is God sending us a message?

    "And [they] cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!" (Rev. 18:18).


There are ships idling at sea right now but there's no smoke and burning.

It's also interesting that "one hour" is mentioned 3 times in Rev 18 -

Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.



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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Big Israel
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2022, 11:04:09 AM »

Rev 18:15  The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her ...

Merchant: a person or company involved in wholesale trade, especially one dealing with foreign countries or supplying merchandise to a particular trade. "a tea merchant" Google

Rev 18:16  And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

Who/what  is/was  rich and made others rich by purchasing merchandise? Certainly not Israel or Egypt. And China's cities are a facade where a billion people are still very poor.

After WWII the United States was the only country of consequence that was not repeated bombed and left with industrial output. We co-opted the Petrodollar which made the dollar the worlds reserve currency and gave us the worlds most prosperous economy.

“With less than 5 percent of world population, the U.S. uses one-third of the world's paper, a quarter of the world's oil, 23 percent of the coal, 27 percent of the aluminum, and 19 percent of the copper,” Google

Of course the 'end' could still be 50 or 100 years away and some other Babylon could fit the above definitions some time in the future.

If I'm wrong please tell me what city/country currently fits the above definitions.
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Musterseed

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Re: Big Israel
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2022, 12:34:01 PM »

I will say the EMPIRE STATE

Quote from Ray….” It’s not just about money, it’s ONLY ABOUT MONEY.


From the Lucifer Hoax

Re. The destruction of Babylon.. Isaiah, chapters 13 & 14, and why the king of Babylon should howl.

Quote from Ray…. What is spoken of in these two chapters of Isaiah 13 & 14 is the history of world
religion and government from the history of man, through the destruction of man and the
realization of Gods spiritual Zion filling the universe. All the religions and governments of the world
in the history of the world are personified in these two chapters. Isaiah 13:1 begins with THE BURDEN OF BABYLON……….. [ organized religion and government against God ] , and ends with 14:32 b,
( that the Lord has founded Zion )(  The spiritual capital of the universe governing all mankind.)
It’s all right here for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.


Howl Ye …. For the day of the Lord is at hand…. It shall come as a DESTRUCTION from the Almighty
and every man’s heart shall melt, etc, etc………..

Yes Dennis, the end could be many years away for this Babylonian system to fall.

Ray….” Let me give you the history of the world including all future prophecies in one sentence.

God perfectly planned and recorded His creation of the heavens , angels, the earth, and
carnal humanity, who sinned wickedly and we’re all drowned ( save a few);who then reached for their own heaven  at the Tower of Babel in rebellion to the God who later scattered them ( save a few)who
later built Babylon into a great pagan empire which God destroyed ( save a few) who have since
built many wicked and fornicating Babylon’s, collectively called, Mystery Babylon the Great, whom
God warns before utterly destroying again (save a few) and of the few, God is creating a New Spiritual
Humanity of Sons and Daughter Saviors like unto Jesus, in New Jerusalem on Spiritual Mt. Zion,
where ALL will be redeemed ( NOT just a few) that God may be ALL IN ALL.😁😘

666 followed by 777

We must keep the unity of the Spirit and pray for endurance and wisdom and for what MUST HAPPEN.
THY Kingdom come, Thy will be done.


Praise God our Father and Jesus our Lord and Saviour. Amen



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Porter

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Re: Big Israel
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2022, 07:54:43 PM »

I agree, Dennis, the technical definition for merchant that you provided is spot on. However, I hope we can agree that there is also a spiritual definition of merchant.

James puts is this way concerning the judgments of the “merchants of the sea” and their company. The ones that were made rich by selling the damnable God hating lies of Babylon.


Jas 3:1  Not many should become teachers, my brothers, knowing that we will receive a stricter judgment;
Jas 3:2  for we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a mature man who is also able to control his whole body.
Jas 3:3  Now when we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we also guide the whole animal.
Jas 3:4  And consider ships: though very large and driven by fierce winds, they are guided by a very small rudder wherever the will of the pilot directs.
Jas 3:5  So too, though the tongue is a small part of the body, it boasts great things [the king exclaimed, "Is this not Babylon the Great that I have built by my vast power to be a royal residence and to display my majestic glory?".]. Consider how large a forest a small fire ignites.
Jas 3:6  And the tongue is a fire. The tongue, a world of unrighteousness, is placed among the parts of our bodies; it pollutes the whole body, sets the course of life on fire, and is set on fire by hell [Greek: Gehenna].

There is also this from Ezekiel.

Eze 27:25  Ships of Tarshish were the carriers for your goods. So you became full and heavily loaded in the heart of the sea.
Eze 27:26  Your rowers have brought you onto the high seas, but the east wind has shattered you in the heart of the sea.
Eze 27:27  Your wealth, merchandise, and goods, your sailors and helmsmen, those who repair your leaks, those who barter for your goods, and all the warriors within you, with all the other people on board, sink into the heart of the sea on the day of your downfall.
Eze 27:28  The countryside shakes at the sound of your sailors' cries.
Eze 27:29 All those who handle an oar disembark from their ships. The sailors and all the helmsmen of the sea stand on the shore.

That last bit I bolded sounds familiar, doesn't it?


Rev 13:1  And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.


Sounds like someone's “house” is about to fall down.


Mat 7:26  But everyone who hears these words of Mine and doesn't act on them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Mat 7:27  The rain fell, the rivers rose, the winds blew and pounded that house, and it collapsed. And its collapse was great!"

It's all one, just as Ray said.

Joh 2:13  And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
Joh 2:14  And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
Joh 2:15  And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Joh 2:16  And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

Here's Peter's take on the merchants and their company.


2Pe 2:1  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2  And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3  And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 


Maybe I'm wrong (wouldn't be the first time), but I have a hard time believing “that great city” is an actual physical place somewhere on earth. Babylon is the Church we were all once a part of, with all its false beliefs and false gods. The merchants, sailors, and traders “make merchandise of you” and me and every believer down through the ages. But we are worth more than their “gold”.


Mat 23:17  Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?


1Co_3:16  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

I'm not saying anything new, as Ray has already told us these things through bible-truths.com. I truly believe that almost everything you ever wanted to know about God and His fellowship with us, and our fellowship with each other, can be found on the main bible truths website.


The keys to understanding are there, but it takes a lot of time. We have to live some of these things in Revelation before we can see them. Nevertheless, Jesus comes to us quickly.


Of course, there are real literal rich nations that give tons of money to Israel, but only because the rich nations believe Israel is the “Holy Land”. The only “rich” Israel is the spiritual one.



Rev 3:17  Because you say, 'I'm rich; I have become wealthy, and need nothing,' and you don't know that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked,
Rev 3:18  I advise you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire so that you may be rich, and white clothes so that you may be dressed and your shameful nakedness not be exposed, and ointment to spread on your eyes so that you may see.

The U.S. is probably the most prominent Christian nation, but would they be without Israel?

Again, all this can be found on bible-truths.com. I just wrote it out the way I understand it.






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zvezda

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Re: Big Israel
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2022, 12:35:43 AM »

Quote

Who/what  is/was  rich and made others rich by purchasing merchandise?


Tyre was. Check out the whole chapter of Ezekiel 27, see if you think it's a spiritual match.

Ezekiel 27
29 And all that handle the oar, the mariners, and all the pilots of the sea, shall come down from their ships, they shall stand upon the land;
30 And shall cause their voice to be heard against thee, and shall cry bitterly, and shall cast up dust upon their heads, they shall wallow themselves in the ashes:
32 And in their wailing they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and lament over thee, saying, What city is like Tyrus, like the destroyed in the midst of the sea?
33 When thy wares went forth out of the seas, thou filledst many people; thou didst enrich the kings of the earth with the multitude of thy riches and of thy merchandise.
35 All the inhabitants of the isles shall be astonished at thee, and their kings shall be sore afraid, they shall be troubled in their countenance.
36 The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt be any more.

Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Isaiah 23:8 Who hath taken this counsel against Tyre, the crowning city, whose merchants are princes, whose traffickers are the honourable of the earth?

Quote

what city/country currently fits the above definitions.


Blackrock and Vanguard comes to mind.
They basically run the world, they own almost every company, corporation, trade and industry.
BlackRock is owned by shareholders, the biggest shareholders of BlackRock is Vanguard.
Vanguard is a private company, it does not disclose who owns it's shares. So it's a mystery, it sort of fits the phrase "mystery, babylon the great".
Since they basically own the world, it's fair to say they also "rule over the kings of the earth" (Rev 17:18)

https://rumble.com/vn7lf5-monopoly-who-owns-the-world-must-see.html


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