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[brokenagain]

I know, I know, I'm not supposed to be here.  I was banned.

But, I'm here in complete humility.  There was a desire amongst some of those whose posts I read recently to have an open, honest, non-heated conversation, and that is what I hope we can do; that is, if you're still interested.  

I'm sorry for not having replied to any of the previous posts below, and I'm truly sorry for my perceived arrogance - that was entirely unintentional.  

However, should we enter into a conversation, I would ask that we all lay some ground-rules from the beginning.

Should no one wish to talk, I will happily leave this forum of my own will.

Brandon

[Falconn003]

brandon

i would be the one to take you up on your offer.

we can do with out the rethoric of the worldly chruches and just go on the fly with what you have learned anything from Bible-truths

converse so me as you would a stranger, dont relie on those teachings of man, speak in and of your self freely
 and i will do the same.

if scripture is needed, let us look for all the possible trnaslations and go from there.

my hand is out to you, you got the next move.

Rodger

[eutychus]

I know, I know, I'm not supposed to be here.  I was banned.

But, I'm here in complete humility.  There was a desire amongst some of those whose posts I read recently to have an open, honest, non-heated conversation, and that is what I hope we can do; that is, if you're still interested.  

I'm sorry for not having replied to any of the previous posts below, and I'm truly sorry for my perceived arrogance - that was entirely unintentional.  

However, should we enter into a conversation, I would ask that we all lay some ground-rules from the beginning.

Should no one wish to talk, I will happily leave this forum of my own will.

Brandon

B.
from another thread.

greetings jerry.

hey if there is a hell as you see it , guess what!

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


this is obviously not hell being cast into its self.

so where does that leave us??

peace
eutychus

[Falconn003]

brandon

though you have left a large trail of resentment, how will you gain the fellowship again with the others and the moderators.

maybe you could set the rules you intend to follow out on the open and ask for thier forgiveness, after all you brought this upon yourself.

humility is a good medicine to strt out with what do you think


Rodger

[jennie]

I am new here so don't know anything much about you. We have all been broken Brandon. We have all suffered pain and we have all been mis-understood. God gives us all new starts each day and He gives you one too. I hope you find what you are looking for and that God  shows you His divine love in such a way that you can see it and know. Sincerely, Jennie

[zander]

As long as no one preaches here im fine with that, personally

[eutychus]

im confused??

brandon states:
:::But, I'm here in complete humility:::


so lets give the fellow the benifite of the doubt, restore him and go from there.

 if he brings strife then we can deal with it.

peace
eutychus

[brokenagain]

Cool, looks like we are all onboard.  

Rodger, I don't know exactly what you mean by "church rhetoric."  It seems to me, though, that we need to begin with a premise.

I will begin by stating my premise, based on my personal study of the Scripture and the context in which it was written.  That premise is that hell certainly exists and that it does not detract from the glory or mercy of God.  In fact, it further glorifies God.

I'm assuming that the premise of those generally in this forum is that hell is an evil doctrine that directly contradicts the gospel and more importantly, the glory and character of God.

Am I correct in that assumption?

Brandon

[brokenagain]

I know, I know, I'm not supposed to be here.  I was banned.

But, I'm here in complete humility.  There was a desire amongst some of those whose posts I read recently to have an open, honest, non-heated conversation, and that is what I hope we can do; that is, if you're still interested.  

I'm sorry for not having replied to any of the previous posts below, and I'm truly sorry for my perceived arrogance - that was entirely unintentional.  

However, should we enter into a conversation, I would ask that we all lay some ground-rules from the beginning.

Should no one wish to talk, I will happily leave this forum of my own will.

Brandon

B.
from another thread.

greetings jerry.

hey if there is a hell as you see it , guess what!

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


this is obviously not hell being cast into its self.

so where does that leave us??

peace
eutychus

Thank you for your assesment.  I think you might have a good starting point here.  Let's ask those others involved so that we may all agree on the starting point of the conversation.

What does everyone else think...is this a good starting point for conversation?

Brandon

[eutychus]

good for me bro.

 lets look into these things with maturity and the spirit of wisdom from our
SAVIOUR.

 peace
 eutychus

[Craig]

Brandon,

Here are the forum rules.

This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship and discuss what they learn on bible-truths.com. Others are welcome as long as questions are respectful and carry no agenda. If you seriously disagree with Ray or Mike, please email them directly.

Please do not make sport of persons who email Ray. Leave any criticism of the individual to Ray. But feel free to express your scholarly views about the email, or any subject.

No preaching. No name-calling.

Thank you for your cooperation.


By some of your writings it appeared you where not of like mind.  And the forum will not be a place of division.  

An example would be (and I'm not saying this is you) Let say you believe man has his own free will, if you know anything about this group then you know we do not believe this.  So keep that opinion to yourself, unless you honestly want to question to try and understand our beliefs.  This forum is not to debate!

If I see any of the previous lines of posts happening again I will also ban your IP address.

I hope you can abide by these rules, because I really hate having to ban anyone.  

Craig

[Falconn003]

brokenagain

Rodger, I don't know exactly what you mean by "church rhetoric." It seems to me, though, that we need to begin with a premise.

I will begin by stating my premise, based on my personal study of the Scripture and the context in which it was written. That premise is that hell certainly exists and that it does not detract from the glory or mercy of God. In fact, it further glorifies God.

I'm assuming that the premise of those generally in this forum is that hell is an evil doctrine that directly contradicts the gospel and more importantly, the glory and character of God.
Am I correct in that assumption?

Brandon

 
My premise is, based on my guidance by the Holy Spirit and the life within the Word, inspires the Love , the Mercy, the Forgiveness , the salvation that God gives to us all so freely and unconditionaly.

Leaves me with the premise that hell is in and of itself nonessential as defined by the secular church.  

A possible good research by your self brandon on the origin of the word "hell" may lead you unto a different conclusion. With out the influence and traditions of the secular church.

brandon stated :

That premise is that hell certainly exists and that it does not detract from the glory or mercy of God. In fact, it further glorifies God.

quid pro quo  how is this so And please do not post half the bible, 2 witnesses will do just fine i would hope so.

Rodger

[eutychus]

[peace
eutychus[/quote]

Thank you for your assesment.  I think you might have a good starting point here.  Let's ask those others involved so that we may all agree on the starting point of the conversation.

What does everyone else think...is this a good starting point for conversation?

Brandon[/quote]

brandon,
first  have you read this?
and if not it would be a good place to start before we discuss any further.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html

http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm


peace
eutychus

[Nelson]

I know, I know, I'm not supposed to be here.  I was banned.

But, I'm here in complete humility.  There was a desire amongst some of those whose posts I read recently to have an open, honest, non-heated conversation, and that is what I hope we can do; that is, if you're still interested.  

I'm sorry for not having replied to any of the previous posts below, and I'm truly sorry for my perceived arrogance - that was entirely unintentional.  

However, should we enter into a conversation, I would ask that we all lay some ground-rules from the beginning.

Should no one wish to talk, I will happily leave this forum of my own will.

Brandon

Hi Brandon,

I remember when you posted regularly a few months ago. You made a bit of a dramatic entrance and then got toasted over the 'it's that hell guy again' statement you made. But when you 'left' because the forum was getting a bit addictive and taking up a lot of your time, many of us wished you well and were sad that you would be absent. You had started to show respect for the beliefs of those who post regularly here and that respect was reciprocated. This allowed healthy discussion of scripture and proved more edifying for all of us, even though there were disagreements among us.

I know that you are fully aware of the beliefs of many who fellowship here and that those who come here to promote doctrines that are rejected here are not welcome to preach such things.

I do sincerely hope that you can bring the humility that you most certainly seem to have learned prior to your BT sabbatical into this forum as many of your posts most certainly were very edifying and informative.

I am surprised by your manner of recent posting after seeing in you previously a real humility through warm fellowship and a desire to see God receive the glory rather than a desire to 'prove' this or that is right or wrong.

There are a number of new members and some of the 'old' members no longer post here, or at least post less frequently. But the purpose of the forum is unchanged. For the record, I have only read a few items written by Mike and Ray and I post here with the purpose of edifying, learning and giving praise to our Father and His Son. I do not believe in a burning, fiery hell or eternal punishment. But I do not condemn those who do believe it, I just give my own reasons why I believe as I do and I'm happy to look at other views on such subjects. But let God be true though every man a liar, I am slow to accept any teaching that cannot be verified by two or three witnesses, and I believe that God gives those witnesses through the scriptures, creation and the spirit within, it's His work and word.

If you truly mean what you say regarding humility then I believe we will benefit greatly from your input, I hope that you are indeed sincere in your statement, wisdom is proved righteous by her children, welcome back.

Grace and peace to you

Nelson

[love_magnified]

I'm assuming that the premise of those generally in this forum is that hell is an evil doctrine that directly contradicts the gospel and more importantly, the glory and character of God.

Am I correct in that assumption?

Absolutely. That is where I am coming from.

[brokenagain]

Nelson, thank you again for welcoming me again.  I reemphasize my apology for the apparent arrogance and sport of my previous posts.  As you know, I did not intend that perception, but it has a tendency to come out anyway.  In any case, I promise to proceed in as much humility as possible.

Eutychus, yes, I have read Ray and Mike's papers on Hell as well as on Aeonian (I think that's how they spell it).  However, I disagree with their primary premise as well as many of their interpretive methods, as you will discover.

Rodger, thank you for clarifying your position.

Parsons, I apologize yet again for the preception of my position in my previous posts.  

Okay, so let the discussion begin.

We agreed that a good starting point would be with the statement in Revelation 20 regarding "hell" being thrown into the lake of fire.

"Hell" in the instance of verse 14, is a mistranslation.  The word used here is Hades.  Hades and Hell are two very different places.  Hades is the repository of souls who await the judgment.  After the resurrection, Hades serves no purpose any longer, therefore it is destroyed in the lake of fire.  

This understanding, of course, comes from the equating of gehenna mentioned by Jesus with the Lake of Fire mentioned in Revelation 20&21.

What is commonly understood as "Hell" is the Lake of Fire.  I think the primary difference between me and you is that I believe the Lake of Fire is eternal or at least final whereas you believe that souls will emerge from the Lake of Fire purified.  Is that right?

Brandon

[eutychus]

Nelson, thank you again for welcoming me again.  I reemphasize my apology for the apparent arrogance and sport of my previous posts.  As you know, I did not intend that perception, but it has a tendency to come out anyway.  In any case, I promise to proceed in as much humility as possible.

Eutychus, yes, I have read Ray and Mike's papers on Hell as well as on Aeonian (I think that's how they spell it).  However, I disagree with their primary premise as well as many of their interpretive methods, as you will discover.

Rodger, thank you for clarifying your position.

Parsons, I apologize yet again for the preception of my position in my previous posts.  

Okay, so let the discussion begin.

We agreed that a good starting point would be with the statement in Revelation 20 regarding "hell" being thrown into the lake of fire.

"Hell" in the instance of verse 14, is a mistranslation.  The word used here is Hades.  Hades and Hell are two very different places.  Hades is the repository of souls who await the judgment.  After the resurrection, Hades serves no purpose any longer, therefore it is destroyed in the lake of fire.  

This understanding, of course, comes from the equating of gehenna mentioned by Jesus with the Lake of Fire mentioned in Revelation 20&21.

What is commonly understood as "Hell" is the Lake of Fire.  I think the primary difference between me and you is that I believe the Lake of Fire is eternal or at least final whereas you believe that souls will emerge from the Lake of Fire purified.  Is that right?

Brandon

Brandon,
  Hades and Hell are two very different places

explain please.

for i have this;
 20:14
And death and (((hell ))))were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Hades 1:146,22
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
hah'-dace      Noun Location  
 
 Definition
name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
later use of this word: the grave, death, hell  
 


 thanks
eutychus

[love_magnified]

"Hell" in the instance of verse 14, is a mistranslation. The word used here is Hades. Hades and Hell are two very different places. Hades is the repository of souls who await the judgment. After the resurrection, Hades serves no purpose any longer, therefore it is destroyed in the lake of fire.

Hades is not a repository of souls. It is the state of death, which itself is destroyed in the same lake. Therefore if death is destroyed, no form of it may exist, including separation from God. You seem to make a distinction between Hades and Hell, but are ignoring the fact that "hell" was translated from "hades" in the King James! So why do you draw a difference now in Revelation? The most interesting thing about both the word "hell" and "hades" is that in their root form they both mean "concealed" or "hidden." That's where we get the word "helmut" from. Back in the day, Germans ("hel" is a German word) used to "hell" their potatoes. That meant that they buried them. Therefore there is no difference between hell and hades at all, they just aren't what you think they are. They eventually (like all pagans did) turned that concept into a big mythical underworld:

"Why is Hell spelled Hel in the Bible?

Did you know that the secular meaning behind the word 'hell,' just as the original meaning of 'hades' simply meant “hidden, out of sight?� Yep, in the ancient German, when two young folks went to a dark place to hide for some necking, they “went to hel,� they hid somewhere. Our English words helmut, hall, hole, and heel, all stem from the German word hele. The religious meaning of the word Hell came from Germany too -- actually it came from Teutonic mythology.

Hele was a goddess of the underworld in ancient folklore.

Hel is the name of the Norse underworld, and its ruler. Hel/Hela, in Norse mythology, was the hideous daughter of the Giant Loki, banished to the netherworld, Helheim (literally, 'house of Hel'), world of the dead, by the Chief God, Odin. The distinctive looking Goddess, whose skin is black on one side, rules over the dead until Ragnarok and the coming birth of the new world.

Hel is sister of Fenris, the wolf, and Jormungand, the world-serpent.

The name for the Christian world of torment "Hell" is derived from Hela's abode. Unlike the Christian version, however, Hel's realm was home to all who did not die in battle - miserable as it was, good behavior wasn't any more likely to get one a reprieve. Helheim's entrance works only in one direction- once one has entered, even a God, one cannot leave - like the Greek Hades, Helheim is guarded by a monstrous hound, and encircled by an impassable river. According to legend, the dead will remain in Hel's kingdom until the last days of Ragnarok."

Check it out if you don't believe me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell I don't know about you, but I reject pagan concepts.

[brokenagain]

"Hell" in the instance of verse 14, is a mistranslation. The word used here is Hades. Hades and Hell are two very different places. Hades is the repository of souls who await the judgment. After the resurrection, Hades serves no purpose any longer, therefore it is destroyed in the lake of fire.

Hades is not a repository of souls. It is the state of death, which itself is destroyed in the same lake. Therefore if death is destroyed, no form of it may exist, including separation from God. You seem to make a distinction between Hades and Hell, but are ignoring the fact that "hell" was translated from "hades" in the King James! So why do you draw a difference now in Revelation? The most interesting thing about both the word "hell" and "hades" is that in their root form they both mean "concealed" or "hidden." That's where we get the word "helmut" from. Back in the day, Germans ("hel" is a German word) used to "hell" their potatoes. That meant that they buried them. Therefore there is no difference between hell and hades at all, they just aren't what you think they are. They eventually (like all pagans did) turned that concept into a big mythical underworld:

"Why is Hell spelled Hel in the Bible?

Did you know that the secular meaning behind the word 'hell,' just as the original meaning of 'hades' simply meant “hidden, out of sight?� Yep, in the ancient German, when two young folks went to a dark place to hide for some necking, they “went to hel,� they hid somewhere. Our English words helmut, hall, hole, and heel, all stem from the German word hele. The religious meaning of the word Hell came from Germany too -- actually it came from Teutonic mythology.

Hele was a goddess of the underworld in ancient folklore.

Hel is the name of the Norse underworld, and its ruler. Hel/Hela, in Norse mythology, was the hideous daughter of the Giant Loki, banished to the netherworld, Helheim (literally, 'house of Hel'), world of the dead, by the Chief God, Odin. The distinctive looking Goddess, whose skin is black on one side, rules over the dead until Ragnarok and the coming birth of the new world.

Hel is sister of Fenris, the wolf, and Jormungand, the world-serpent.

The name for the Christian world of torment "Hell" is derived from Hela's abode. Unlike the Christian version, however, Hel's realm was home to all who did not die in battle - miserable as it was, good behavior wasn't any more likely to get one a reprieve. Helheim's entrance works only in one direction- once one has entered, even a God, one cannot leave - like the Greek Hades, Helheim is guarded by a monstrous hound, and encircled by an impassable river. According to legend, the dead will remain in Hel's kingdom until the last days of Ragnarok."

Check it out if you don't believe me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell I don't know about you, but I reject pagan concepts.

I don't have time at this moment to offer a full answer to your post, but I will soon.  What I do want to point out at this point...and thank you for bringing it up...is that I will NOT be using the King James whatsoever, and would ask that in this discussion we not use the King James.  There are a number of reasons for that request.  If you would like to know why, just ask.

Brandon

[love_magnified]

I don't agree with the constraint as it seems unfair to restrict me from using a resource, albeit an imperfect one. There is no perfect translation. But I understand why you distrust the King James. The reason I mentioned it is because most folks who believe in hell also believe that the King James is infallible. I no longer believe that, but I still see it as a valuable resource. Shouldn't I be able to use a resource that I find to be valuable?