> General Discussions
Here we go...
brokenagain:
Nelson, thank you again for welcoming me again. I reemphasize my apology for the apparent arrogance and sport of my previous posts. As you know, I did not intend that perception, but it has a tendency to come out anyway. In any case, I promise to proceed in as much humility as possible.
Eutychus, yes, I have read Ray and Mike's papers on Hell as well as on Aeonian (I think that's how they spell it). However, I disagree with their primary premise as well as many of their interpretive methods, as you will discover.
Rodger, thank you for clarifying your position.
Parsons, I apologize yet again for the preception of my position in my previous posts.
Okay, so let the discussion begin.
We agreed that a good starting point would be with the statement in Revelation 20 regarding "hell" being thrown into the lake of fire.
"Hell" in the instance of verse 14, is a mistranslation. The word used here is Hades. Hades and Hell are two very different places. Hades is the repository of souls who await the judgment. After the resurrection, Hades serves no purpose any longer, therefore it is destroyed in the lake of fire.
This understanding, of course, comes from the equating of gehenna mentioned by Jesus with the Lake of Fire mentioned in Revelation 20&21.
What is commonly understood as "Hell" is the Lake of Fire. I think the primary difference between me and you is that I believe the Lake of Fire is eternal or at least final whereas you believe that souls will emerge from the Lake of Fire purified. Is that right?
Brandon
eutychus:
--- Quote from: brokenagain ---Nelson, thank you again for welcoming me again. I reemphasize my apology for the apparent arrogance and sport of my previous posts. As you know, I did not intend that perception, but it has a tendency to come out anyway. In any case, I promise to proceed in as much humility as possible.
Eutychus, yes, I have read Ray and Mike's papers on Hell as well as on Aeonian (I think that's how they spell it). However, I disagree with their primary premise as well as many of their interpretive methods, as you will discover.
Rodger, thank you for clarifying your position.
Parsons, I apologize yet again for the preception of my position in my previous posts.
Okay, so let the discussion begin.
We agreed that a good starting point would be with the statement in Revelation 20 regarding "hell" being thrown into the lake of fire.
"Hell" in the instance of verse 14, is a mistranslation. The word used here is Hades. Hades and Hell are two very different places. Hades is the repository of souls who await the judgment. After the resurrection, Hades serves no purpose any longer, therefore it is destroyed in the lake of fire.
This understanding, of course, comes from the equating of gehenna mentioned by Jesus with the Lake of Fire mentioned in Revelation 20&21.
What is commonly understood as "Hell" is the Lake of Fire. I think the primary difference between me and you is that I believe the Lake of Fire is eternal or at least final whereas you believe that souls will emerge from the Lake of Fire purified. Is that right?
Brandon
--- End quote ---
Brandon,
Hades and Hell are two very different places
explain please.
for i have this;
20:14
And death and (((hell ))))were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Hades 1:146,22
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
hah'-dace Noun Location
Definition
name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
thanks
eutychus
love_magnified:
--- Quote ---"Hell" in the instance of verse 14, is a mistranslation. The word used here is Hades. Hades and Hell are two very different places. Hades is the repository of souls who await the judgment. After the resurrection, Hades serves no purpose any longer, therefore it is destroyed in the lake of fire.
--- End quote ---
Hades is not a repository of souls. It is the state of death, which itself is destroyed in the same lake. Therefore if death is destroyed, no form of it may exist, including separation from God. You seem to make a distinction between Hades and Hell, but are ignoring the fact that "hell" was translated from "hades" in the King James! So why do you draw a difference now in Revelation? The most interesting thing about both the word "hell" and "hades" is that in their root form they both mean "concealed" or "hidden." That's where we get the word "helmut" from. Back in the day, Germans ("hel" is a German word) used to "hell" their potatoes. That meant that they buried them. Therefore there is no difference between hell and hades at all, they just aren't what you think they are. They eventually (like all pagans did) turned that concept into a big mythical underworld:
"Why is Hell spelled Hel in the Bible?
Did you know that the secular meaning behind the word 'hell,' just as the original meaning of 'hades' simply meant “hidden, out of sight?� Yep, in the ancient German, when two young folks went to a dark place to hide for some necking, they “went to hel,� they hid somewhere. Our English words helmut, hall, hole, and heel, all stem from the German word hele. The religious meaning of the word Hell came from Germany too -- actually it came from Teutonic mythology.
Hele was a goddess of the underworld in ancient folklore.
Hel is the name of the Norse underworld, and its ruler. Hel/Hela, in Norse mythology, was the hideous daughter of the Giant Loki, banished to the netherworld, Helheim (literally, 'house of Hel'), world of the dead, by the Chief God, Odin. The distinctive looking Goddess, whose skin is black on one side, rules over the dead until Ragnarok and the coming birth of the new world.
Hel is sister of Fenris, the wolf, and Jormungand, the world-serpent.
The name for the Christian world of torment "Hell" is derived from Hela's abode. Unlike the Christian version, however, Hel's realm was home to all who did not die in battle - miserable as it was, good behavior wasn't any more likely to get one a reprieve. Helheim's entrance works only in one direction- once one has entered, even a God, one cannot leave - like the Greek Hades, Helheim is guarded by a monstrous hound, and encircled by an impassable river. According to legend, the dead will remain in Hel's kingdom until the last days of Ragnarok."
Check it out if you don't believe me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell I don't know about you, but I reject pagan concepts.
brokenagain:
--- Quote from: love_magnified ---
--- Quote ---"Hell" in the instance of verse 14, is a mistranslation. The word used here is Hades. Hades and Hell are two very different places. Hades is the repository of souls who await the judgment. After the resurrection, Hades serves no purpose any longer, therefore it is destroyed in the lake of fire.
--- End quote ---
Hades is not a repository of souls. It is the state of death, which itself is destroyed in the same lake. Therefore if death is destroyed, no form of it may exist, including separation from God. You seem to make a distinction between Hades and Hell, but are ignoring the fact that "hell" was translated from "hades" in the King James! So why do you draw a difference now in Revelation? The most interesting thing about both the word "hell" and "hades" is that in their root form they both mean "concealed" or "hidden." That's where we get the word "helmut" from. Back in the day, Germans ("hel" is a German word) used to "hell" their potatoes. That meant that they buried them. Therefore there is no difference between hell and hades at all, they just aren't what you think they are. They eventually (like all pagans did) turned that concept into a big mythical underworld:
"Why is Hell spelled Hel in the Bible?
Did you know that the secular meaning behind the word 'hell,' just as the original meaning of 'hades' simply meant “hidden, out of sight?� Yep, in the ancient German, when two young folks went to a dark place to hide for some necking, they “went to hel,� they hid somewhere. Our English words helmut, hall, hole, and heel, all stem from the German word hele. The religious meaning of the word Hell came from Germany too -- actually it came from Teutonic mythology.
Hele was a goddess of the underworld in ancient folklore.
Hel is the name of the Norse underworld, and its ruler. Hel/Hela, in Norse mythology, was the hideous daughter of the Giant Loki, banished to the netherworld, Helheim (literally, 'house of Hel'), world of the dead, by the Chief God, Odin. The distinctive looking Goddess, whose skin is black on one side, rules over the dead until Ragnarok and the coming birth of the new world.
Hel is sister of Fenris, the wolf, and Jormungand, the world-serpent.
The name for the Christian world of torment "Hell" is derived from Hela's abode. Unlike the Christian version, however, Hel's realm was home to all who did not die in battle - miserable as it was, good behavior wasn't any more likely to get one a reprieve. Helheim's entrance works only in one direction- once one has entered, even a God, one cannot leave - like the Greek Hades, Helheim is guarded by a monstrous hound, and encircled by an impassable river. According to legend, the dead will remain in Hel's kingdom until the last days of Ragnarok."
Check it out if you don't believe me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell I don't know about you, but I reject pagan concepts.
--- End quote ---
I don't have time at this moment to offer a full answer to your post, but I will soon. What I do want to point out at this point...and thank you for bringing it up...is that I will NOT be using the King James whatsoever, and would ask that in this discussion we not use the King James. There are a number of reasons for that request. If you would like to know why, just ask.
Brandon
love_magnified:
I don't agree with the constraint as it seems unfair to restrict me from using a resource, albeit an imperfect one. There is no perfect translation. But I understand why you distrust the King James. The reason I mentioned it is because most folks who believe in hell also believe that the King James is infallible. I no longer believe that, but I still see it as a valuable resource. Shouldn't I be able to use a resource that I find to be valuable?
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