Here we go...

[brokenagain]

I don't agree with the constraint as it seems unfair to restrict me from using a resource, albeit an imperfect one. There is no perfect translation. But I understand why you distrust the King James. The reason I mentioned it is because most folks who believe in hell also believe that the King James is infallible. I no longer believe that, but I still see it as a valuable resource. Shouldn't I be able to use a resource that I find to be valuable?

I'm sorry for making it seem like I was trying to restrict you.  I just meant that I personally will not be using it as it is generally the most unreliable of the translations, though I do enjoy the poetry of it as opposed to some of our newer translations.

The translations I will be using are the ESV and NASB.  Once in a while I go to the NIV or TNIV.

Thanks for helping me clarify.

Brandon

[love_magnified]

No problem.

[orion77]

I, too am welcome to open discussion as long as name calling and presumptions are left at the door.  The love of God surpasses all understanding.  This is what I wish to discuss.  As long as it has to do with the edifying of the body of Christ and the love, forgiveness and mercy of God.  These are what I seek for.

I have longed for many years for a place where I can fellowship with like minded believers.  They are few and far between.  I am from the bible belt and hence the majority are bible thumping hellfire and brimstone preachers.  Not to be calling anyone names, but just so you understand of my situation.  We are taught to call Him our Father.  My physical father is a good man and I know he loves me, but my heavenly Father has a fatherly love which is greater.  Until I realized that I truly can do nothing of my ownself, and that His will be done and not mine...then God (my father) turned a light on and welcomed me with open and loving arms.  His ways are wise indeed, by Him being a loving Father, I had to get to that point first before He would show me the infinite love He has in store for not just me, but for all of His creation.  It is His creation to do with as He pleases, to mold (create), us in His image through His son Jesus.

As my signature denotes below, it is all about love.  Love for God and love for our neighbor.  Love casts out all fear.  

Sincerely,

Gary

[Falconn003]

wow truly wonderful

Hope the fellowship goes very well and eddyfing for everyone involved.

May God grace you all

Rodger

[brokenagain]

"Hell" in the instance of verse 14, is a mistranslation. The word used here is Hades. Hades and Hell are two very different places. Hades is the repository of souls who await the judgment. After the resurrection, Hades serves no purpose any longer, therefore it is destroyed in the lake of fire.

Hades is not a repository of souls. It is the state of death, which itself is destroyed in the same lake. Therefore if death is destroyed, no form of it may exist, including separation from God. You seem to make a distinction between Hades and Hell, but are ignoring the fact that "hell" was translated from "hades" in the King James! So why do you draw a difference now in Revelation? The most interesting thing about both the word "hell" and "hades" is that in their root form they both mean "concealed" or "hidden." That's where we get the word "helmut" from. Back in the day, Germans ("hel" is a German word) used to "hell" their potatoes. That meant that they buried them. Therefore there is no difference between hell and hades at all, they just aren't what you think they are. They eventually (like all pagans did) turned that concept into a big mythical underworld:

I did read the article you posted, but I prefer to answer your statements rather than Wikipedia's, mainly because I can't really argue with Wikipedia - I am by no means an Etymologist.  

You're right about the origin of the word "hell," however, I think we have our concepts twisted up a bit here.  We're getting hung up on the word "hell."  I think it would help at this point to throw out the term altogether as it comes with a lot of baggage we do not need.  However, I will say that the appropriation of a pagan word to describe a Christian doctrine does not discount the doctrine.  The problem with the doctrine is not found in its name, but in its construction, and that is what we want to look at.

Okay, so here we go.  I equate gehenna and the Lake of Fire.  It is doubtless that the image of the Lake of Fire is generated from Jesus' use of gehenna.  

Hades, you're right, is death, but not with a sense of finality.  Hades is the realm of death, or the realm of the dead.  It is the NT equivalent of Sheol.  In Hades all souls await their final judgment, this is what is meant in Revelation 20 when Hades "gives up its dead."  At that point souls either enter Heaven or are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Brandon

[eutychus]

I don't agree with the constraint as it seems unfair to restrict me from using a resource, albeit an imperfect one. There is no perfect translation. But I understand why you distrust the King James. The reason I mentioned it is because most folks who believe in hell also believe that the King James is infallible. I no longer believe that, but I still see it as a valuable resource. Shouldn't I be able to use a resource that I find to be valuable?

I'm sorry for making it seem like I was trying to restrict you.  I just meant that I personally will not be using it as it is generally the most unreliable of the translations, though I do enjoy the poetry of it as opposed to some of our newer translations.

The translations I will be using are the ESV and NASB.  Once in a while I go to the NIV or TNIV.

Thanks for helping me clarify.

Brandon

brandon,
is there anyway for you to move from eternal punishment to anihalation?
(SP)

maybe we can move on from there???

and do you think the lake of fire is ageless???

peace
chuckt

[brokenagain]

I don't agree with the constraint as it seems unfair to restrict me from using a resource, albeit an imperfect one. There is no perfect translation. But I understand why you distrust the King James. The reason I mentioned it is because most folks who believe in hell also believe that the King James is infallible. I no longer believe that, but I still see it as a valuable resource. Shouldn't I be able to use a resource that I find to be valuable?

I'm sorry for making it seem like I was trying to restrict you.  I just meant that I personally will not be using it as it is generally the most unreliable of the translations, though I do enjoy the poetry of it as opposed to some of our newer translations.

The translations I will be using are the ESV and NASB.  Once in a while I go to the NIV or TNIV.

Thanks for helping me clarify.

Brandon

brandon,
is there anyway for you to move from eternal punishment to anihalation?
(SP)

maybe we can move on from there???

and do you think the lake of fire is ageless???

peace
chuckt

Yes, I do think the Lake of Fire is eternal.  I don't go along with Ray's analysis of the word aion, mainly because my own word study yielded quite different results and the figurative meaning of the word in the context of first century Palestine disagrees with Ray's study.

I'm not sure if I am annihilationist or not.  I believe that it is certainly possible that the Lake of Fire is the annihilation of the wicked.  I have leaned toward that interpretation for a long time.  I do know that I cannot believe at all that anyone comes out of the Lake of Fire or that the Lake of Fire is a figurative image used for the purifying of sin that remains in souls.

For the sake of discussion I suppose I could accept that the Lake of Fire is equivalent to annihilation.  That still does not make me a universalist in any sense.

Brandon

[hillsbororiver]

Hades, you're right, is death, but not with a sense of finality.  Hades is the realm of death, or the realm of the dead.  It is the NT equivalent of Sheol.  In Hades all souls await their final judgment, this is what is meant in Revelation 20 when Hades "gives up its dead."  At that point souls either enter Heaven or are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Brandon

Brandon, I see you reference Rev. Ch. 20 proceeding this statement, but how about some chapter and verse for the statement's assumption, are the first resurrection and the White Throne Judgement one and the same, why is there need for a resurrection of the "souls" alive in Hades?

Thanks,

Joe

[eutychus]

in assure you the fire goes out!!

Job 18:5 Yea, the light of the wicked shall be put out, and the spark of his fire shall not shine.


Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap

refiners fire always goes out when he is finnished.

Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God.

Deu 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.



why resurrect the dead to kill them again?

[Sorin]

That premise is that hell certainly exists and that it does not detract from the glory or mercy of God. In fact, it further glorifies God.

:shock:


Blasphemy!!

[love_magnified]

You're right about the origin of the word "hell," however, I think we have our concepts twisted up a bit here.  We're getting hung up on the word "hell."  I think it would help at this point to throw out the term altogether as it comes with a lot of baggage we do not need.  However, I will say that the appropriation of a pagan word to describe a Christian doctrine does not discount the doctrine.  The problem with the doctrine is not found in its name, but in its construction, and that is what we want to look at.

I believe it is enough for me to completely discount the a doctrine that souls go to a place called hell where they are tormented. What it does not discount is God's judgement. That I would never discount. I do question the form his judgement comes it according to the doctrine of hell.

Okay, so here we go.  I equate gehenna and the Lake of Fire.  It is doubtless that the image of the Lake of Fire is generated from Jesus' use of gehenna.  

Hades, you're right, is death, but not with a sense of finality.  Hades is the realm of death, or the realm of the dead.  It is the NT equivalent of Sheol.  In Hades all souls await their final judgment, this is what is meant in Revelation 20 when Hades "gives up its dead."  At that point souls either enter Heaven or are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

The problem is with the literal interpretation of the Lake of Fire. The fire is spiritual, which I know you have heard before. According to 1 Corinthians 3, the fire tests our works. It does not burn us carnally.

[Sorin]

Yeah torturing with real fire billions upon billions of boys, girls, men,women,pregnant women for all "eternity"   is what " glorifies " his god.

But NOT  the one True and Living God.

[love_magnified]

Certainly not. The Glory of God is in forgiving an enemy and blessing your cursers and not holding an offence and being long suffering and all that stuff.    

God's glory is "Forgive them father for they know not what they do."

God's glory is the C-R-O-S-S

[jennie]

I think it is very hard for us as humans to have a real good grasp of the forgiving power of God. Not to say that we don't believe in His forgiveness because we do. Our minds are so finite and God is so big we can't even begin to imagine how big His arms of forgiveness are. For me, I am so glad His arms are big because they can wrap around all of us no matter where we are.

[Kevin]

Why is this discussion even going on? Would we all be discussing tithing,that God would not save all?Would we be discussing the aperitions of Mary? Why would we undergo discussions of things that we come to know are lies. I thought this board is for those of like minds. Ive been to many churches where I would go and they try to change my mind the way I think and I would follow along, so why do we enguage in a conversation when one is trying to change the truthes to what God has shown us. I dont want to look back. Been there done that. This discussion will just lead to strife and contention. The discussion going on isnt really for edifying it is for one to try and change what we believe. Would Jesus listen to someone rambling on about this hell of torture. Would He let someone try to change his mind and listen to the lies that flow out of their lips.Have a good night I think I will turn on TBN and listen to them talk about the majority of humanity burning for all eternity begging for a drop of water.