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[Dynamo54]

I have not been able to discover in Ray’s writings, answers, or videos an answer to a question I have, and am wondering if any can steer me to an answer from Ray, or something that approximates an answer.

As I understand it, God’s wrath will be poured out on those living at the end time of Christ’s return. The elect are spared the wrath, but not tribulation. It would seem that only those alive at that time would experience the wrath. By that I mean all people who have died without Christ (and that is obviously the mega majority of mankind through ages) will be resurrected to judgement at some time in the future and undergo judgement as the elect are now….living a life and learning God’s way and repenting and becoming like God via his Holy Spirit. So, it seems, (or at least I haven’t seen scripture that states that those resurrected to judgement will have wrath poured out on them) that dead is a good state to be in…they will miss the wrath of the end times.
Of course Ray said that Revelation is symbolic, and could it be that the wrath will not be physical? This is a hard one for me to understand. Judgement during an unstated length of time (yom?) for all in the resurrection to judgement seems definetly preferable to wrath to me.

[indianabob]

Good morning dynamo,

You have a fair point when you write that "dead" is better than living through the coming tribulation at Christ's return.
When our Lord returns it will be necessary to make all things new. That would seem to include destroying all evil things that mankind has created or built that are against God's purpose.
=
Christ Jesus is not going to govern a world that continues in Satan's way of living.
So consider what we have today that we lust after that would not be useful in a society where truth prevails and all people have access to knowledge of the truth of scripture. One pure language world wide. One true religion world wide with no one being deceived by Satan who is put away for that whole age.
=
With that style of governance, Why would we need sky scraper buildings housing commercial headquarters for international trade? Why would we need two automobiles in every garage? Why would we need hundreds of colleges teaching lies to students about the creation. We wouldn't would we?

So then since these artificial monuments to man's folly will not be needed, take them down!

At that time there will be earthquakes as have never before been seen.
That would solve the problem of how to hide the folly of mankind from future generations, would it not?
=
Then the members of mankind that remain alive through the destruction can begin to rebuild according to God's will rather than their own faulty reasoning.

Just supposing, 

 Warm regards, Indiana Bob

[Porter]

As I understand it, God’s wrath will be poured out on those living at the end time of Christ’s return. It would seem that only those alive at that time would experience the wrath.

…they will miss the wrath of the end times.

Hi Dynamo54,
Do you have a source for this statement of yours that I quoted? I ask because it would help us understand why you see it that way.

I've always thought that at least only part of the many called will experience this wrath (after the resurrection to judgment) regardless of when they died, but I don't know for sure.

[Dennis Vogel]

It would seem that only those alive at that time would experience the wrath.

Rev 11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 

[Dynamo54]

Porter
Yes, Dennis has a right scripture. Also Rev. 8:1, Rev. 15.1, and Rev. 16.1 are on point.
My point is that Ray showed us that the elect are promised to not incur God’s wrath on the world, but that the elect are  not promised no tribulation (what most churches call “the great tribulation”). The elect go thru much tribulation throughout their lives, but not at the end time before the wrath of God is poured out. I can find no place where scripture states that in the white throne judgement period the resurrected to physical life people will be shown/experience God’s wrath AT THAT TIME. I only see God’s wrath on the world applied right before Christ’s return….hence my statement that “dead” is a good state to be in at the time of Christ’s return IF one is not an elect.

In regards to the white throne judgement period, I have come to think of it similar to what Ray discussed about the creation “days”.  I believe Ray pointed out the word “day” is from the Hebrew “yom”, which can mean an unspecified period or length of time. Ray said that definition in no way precluded the age of the universe and earth being billions and possible trillions of years old. He showed how science today and the fossil record support a very very long time for the earth coming to its present state.

I wonder if the Lord’s “ day”, and judgement “day” are similar…..a very long time. It seems illogical to me that the over 100 billion people would all be resurrected at the same time and ministered to by the elect. Why would that judgement “day” not be thousands and thousands of years with the dead being raised up according to some planned time frame. That day/yom would still be a time of judgement no matter how many years it lasted. That is just my conjecture.

As to my original question on wrath in the white throne judgement, I will appreciate if y’all find any scriptures that speak to that. Absent scripture I think I will believe that God’s wrath is only applied before Christ’s coming.

Of course Ray has shown how the whole book of Revelation is spirit and symbolic, so maybe we really don’t understand how to understand the referenced “wrath”.  Is that symbolic too?

[Dynamo54]

I see that I did not proof myself very well.

The elect DO go through the end time tribulation….not the wrath of God.

[Porter]

There is also the matter of little children that died or those that were conceived, but never born. My paraphrase, but Ray said that they would have a chance to grow up and experience sin. Wouldn't it be more “beneficial” if they were all raised up together? I dunno, just a thought.


I have put some thought into who exactly will experience of the wrath of God, but never thought of the when too much. Maybe we can infer a little something from this.


Rom 1:18  For God's wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth,
Rom 1:19  since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them.


How many that have known the truth (that have lived and died) have actually suppressed the truth in unrighteousness, so that God's name may be blasphemed in the world?


Rom 2:20  an instructor of the ignorant, a teacher of the immature, having in the law the full expression of knowledge and truth--
Rom 2:21  you then, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach, “You must not steal"--do you steal?
Rom 2:22  You who say, "You must not commit adultery"--do you commit adultery? You who detest idols, do you rob their temples?
Rom 2:23  You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?
Rom 2:24  For, as it is written: The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.


All this (and a whole lot more) during the time of Paul's ministry. Because of our Shepard's, the unbelieving world thinks God is a weak crackpot. Will they escape the wrath of God because they are dead at “Christ's return”? I would be surprised if they did escape.

Heb 10:26  For if we deliberately sin (read: Rom. 2:20-24) after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27  but a terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries.


I think the question of God's wrath being symbolic or literal is a good one. I do know for sure, that it is nothing like the Church describes and teaches, whatever the wrath of God may be.



The sermon on the Mount of Olives is not only for you, but it will happen to you, if you are Christs. The end, the tribulation, the wars, and rumors of wars, earthquakes, and afflictions etc. are for you. Jesus only taught in parables, and the sermon on the mount is no different. It's easy to confuse the tribulation of the Elect with the wrath of God on the world. I know, I've done it before.

[Dynamo54]

Appreciate the comments.

Where Romans 1:18 above talks of God’s wrath revealed from heaven….is that God’s anger at the unrighteousness and maybe not retribution (my word) wrath spoken of in Revelation at Christ’s return?  The unfolding of God’s wrath in Revelation apparently lasts a long time and seems much more unique punishment for the godless at the end time where it is compared both to Noah’s time and Sodom (i.e., “as it was in the day of Noah…”). The memory (horror) of that time will surely carry over into white throne judgement time for those who live thru the end time. That terrible wrath from God (which is deserved) seems to be portrayed as a singular time.

Don’t know how, or even if that same vehement wrath will occur in the white throne judgement. We are told that judgement by fire in the white throne judgement is the same as the fiery trials and judgement that the elect go through now in preparation for finally being born of God. Hebrews 10:27 you cited above does talk about judgement and fury of fire…..but is that wrath.
Anyway, I think of this as I hope that I am elect and not just called, but as Ray said (paraphrasing) “Christ knows who is His and who is in Him, but we don’t!”
If I am not elect, then judgement at a later time without endtime wrath sure sounds better to me.

I guess I just have not found scriptures about “wrath” AFTER Christ returns.
Thanks

[Porter]

Who are the “godless” if not the ones that are gods to themselves?

We are told that judgement by fire in the white throne judgement is the same as the fiery trials and judgement that the elect go through now in preparation for finally being born of God.

I've never heard that before, can you cite a source for it? It would help a lot. Ray did say the sequence not the severity of judgement for the Elect and the world is the same.


https://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm


But how do the Elect "die once but after this Judgment?" It rather seems that they would receive Judgment [in this life], and then after this [judgment] they would once die. No, the sequence is the same for the Elect as it is for the wicked: "And it is appointed unto men [including the Elect] once to die, but after this [after this necessary 'once to die' declaration, then follows...], Judgment" (Heb. 9:27). And what did we learn Judgment is? Why, THE SECOND DEATH. There can only be a "second" death if it is first preceded by another death.

Now for the second part of the Heb. 9:27 riddle: When and how do God's Elect die "ONCE" before their SECOND death Judgment? Some of you should already be ahead of me with all the hints I have given you, but for the rest who haven't figured it out yet, you will maybe feel a little embarrassed when you see the answer, so here it is:

"Know ye not [no, of course the majority of Christendom 'knows not,' and that is why the physical aspects of baptism is so important to them...] ...know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into DEATH" (Rom. 6:3-4).

There is the answer to how God's Elect must "once die" before their "Second death Judgment."

The carnal world dies when they breathe their last and go down into the grave. God's Elect die when they are "baptized into death.". After resurrection from the dead, the world will enter into Judgment. And what about us--God's Elect? When do we enter into Judgment? Same way, when we are resurrected from the dead through baptism.

    "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom. 6:4).

Maybe the Lake of Fire is the wrath of God.


Eze 22:20  Just as one gathers silver, copper, iron, lead, and tin into the furnace to blow fire on them and melt them, so I will gather you in My anger and wrath, put you inside, and melt you.
Eze 22:21  Yes, I will gather you together and blow on you with the fire of My fury, and you will be melted within the city.


Eze 38:19  For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
Eze 38:20  So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. 


Deu_4:24  For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

We can volunteer to judge ourselves now, or we can be judged with the rest of the world in the Lake of Fire later.


Mar 9:43 And, if thy hand shall cause thee to stumble, cut it off,—it is, seemly, for thee, maimed, to enter into life, rather than having, the two hands, to depart into the gehenna, into the fire that is not quenched;
Mar 9:45 And, if thy foot be causing thee to stumble, cut it off,—it is, seemly, for thee, to enter into life, lame, rather than having, the two feet, to be cast into the gehenna;
Mar 9:47 And, if thine eye be causing thee to stumble, thrust it out,—it is, seemly, for thee, one-eye, to enter into the kingdom of God, rather than having, two eyes, to be cast into gehenna,
Mar 9:48 Where, their worm, dieth not, and, the fire, is not quenched,
Mar 9:49 For, everyone, with fire, shall be salted.

Maybe this is what wrathful judgement means, and is “worse” than judgement through tribulation. Voluntarily remove yourself from the temple or throne of God, or God will do it forcefully with wrath later. Some may be more stubborn than others, and some it probably won't take much. God knows the right amount of heat to apply, I'm certain.

Thoughts?

[Dynamo54]

Two things.

I was reading that passage from Ray just last night but not in the LoF paper, but in an answer Ray gave to a question about judgement. I like to go the list of question topics that Kat put together years ago. As you might guess, I was studying “wrath” and “judgement” and was trying to find what Ray had said about it. Small world.😀

As to a source on my comment…I was kind of paraphrasing where Ray said multiple times that the elect are tried in fire (now, as judgement has began in the house of the Lord) and the the non-elect are too tried in fire (Lake of Fire) at a later time (what I was referring to as the white throne judgement). All are tried in fire, so that is the basis of my comment that I may not have worded accurately.

The excerpt from LoF 16 you pasted in your comment…Ray said, “After resurrection from the dead, the world will enter into judgement”.  I have always understood that the dead enter judgement after resurrection, but had also thought that those that live on into the time when God’s government is established at the coming of Christ would start their judgement then while they alive.  I guess I think that by going thru that and seeing Christ return and establishing His kingdom, they will have their eyes (heart) open as we have had ours opened. I just assumed that some (many?) would be converted at that time and therefore their second death would be as ours, baptized into Christ’s death.
I imagine we each have different thoughts about that time immediately after Christs return…at least as far as physical people still living.

On a side note. How did you copy my sentence to paste into your comment? I use an IPad and don’t know how to do that. I would like to so I don’t have to retype things from other’s posts when replying.

Thanks

[Porter]

Not gonna lie, but this topic is mostly above my understanding. Your thoughts on this subject are as good as any, I reckon. I wish I had an answer for you.

As for quoting a link, like I did with your comment, there should be an option called “insert quote” top right of the body of the quote. However, it may be different on an ipad, as I'm on a desktop pc. From there, simply delete whatever lines you don't need, while preserving the quote tags that you'll see at the beginning and ending of the quote.

Here's a link and a quote from an online manual for the Simple Machine Forums, which is what bible truths forum runs on.


https://wiki.simplemachines.org/smf/Posting


There are two ways of replying to a post by quoting it. The first option is to click on the Quote button on the top right-hand side of the relevant post. The second option is to select the Reply button which will take you to the Post reply screen. On this page you can quote a post from the Topic Summary located below the message editor. Simply click on Insert Quote next to the relevant post.
 

• Both of the above options add a link to the original post showing the name of the poster and the date and time of the post. This information is added by attributes in the opening quote tag (author=, link=topic=, date=). The plain Bulletin Board Code quote tag simply quotes the relevant post without any additional information.
• You can retain or add the 'author' attribute independently of the full quote function.

[Dave in Tenn]

To add a small note.  Try not to keep the entire quote (especially if it's long) but just quote the section of the quoted post you want to comment on and delete the rest.  And be careful that you don't type within the quote tags.  Threads can get impossible to read with unnecessary quotes and quotes of other people's quotes.

[ralph]

I am only saying the following to perhaps shed some light here. 

My life it seems has been one trial after another with short periods of tranquility here and there.

Some trials within the last 20 years for example, were so severe, that if they were to happen again at my ripe old age of 50, I might very well end up in the hospital or worse.  There were times when it sure felt like I was on the receiving end of God’s anger and indignation to the point where I begged God to take me in my sleep. I did not want to live any longer and I can honestly relate to this:

Revelation 9:5-6
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them

I deserved it. I was a bad boy and it took severe trials to dethrone that beast, but if what I experienced was God’s loving discipline/ judgement, I tremble to think what his wrath would be like. 

Through all of that tribulation, I am thankful because those trials caused me to repent. They changed my heart. I am not the same man that I was just 20 years ago. I came to a point where I knew it was God causing the tribulation and during that tribulation there were blessings of understanding and growth. Before that, they were just horrible experiences with no growth or revelation.

If God did not throw me a life preserver, I’d still be lost at sea.  I have a difficult time looking into the future at what might happen to the rest of humanity because I was one of them not so long ago. When I read the word of God, I always try and apply it to myself first. More often than not, I can relate to what I am reading as opposed to placing it on the rest of humanity during some future event.  Am I wrong? Am I being too hard on myself?  Well I suppose that’s the purpose of the body of Christ and this forum, to answer questions like these and I am grateful for all of you.

[Dave in Tenn]

I think there is good reason why "we" are forbidden wrath, and why wrath is reserved to God    We don't know how to do it.  I don't even think we know what it is...only what it is like, at best.

As best as I've been able to suss it out, "wrath" is closer to jealousy and desire than to a burst of anger.  It's acting upon that jealousy or desire like toward a spouse or child.  That's more or less what it is like, and we should pay more attention to the adjectives and accompanying "actions and/or emotions" in the text as well as the more specific "subject" of the wrath over the severity.  It's far different to say I want you back than to say I want you dead.  Little Johnny getting lost in Walmart is not the same as little Johnny locking the doors and setting the store on fire.  "Wrath", as best as I can understand it encompasses both scenarios.  The Lake of Fire is for both the terrible and the timid.

The reason "we" escape the wrath to come is maybe because He has already dragged/compelled "us".  I still have scars from the dragging, and He's not even finished yet.  He scourges every son he receives.  Since He knows from the beginning who he receives and when, He's been preparing MY place since the beginning.  Even when things were apparently calm and pleasant, it was just part of the scourging, the Great Tribulation.  Not my will, but His be done.

[Musterseed]

1 Thes. 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation, through
Our Lord Jesus Christ,10,,, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep
we might live with Him.

From Two Judgements by fire

When God purges the hearts and minds of the wicked with His all consuming Spiritual
Fire, they will be UTTERLY ASHAMED! ( caps Rays)

Notice what God says regarding anyone who is part of this one world religious system.

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication Rev.18:3
which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation.( wrath)

And he shall be tormented ( utterly ashamed, spiritual and mental torment with
fire and brimstone ( God’s Divine Spiritual Fire) in the presence of the holy angels
and the presence of the Lamb.( Rev.14:10)

Job 21:20,,, Let their own eyes see their destruction and let them drink of the wrath
of the Almighty.

Quote from Ray from audio , many called few chosen.

“God not only wants us to see the evil in the world, but also in our own hearts.”


They are going to have to face their sins and wickedness and hypocrisy.
Not in the presence of God but un the presence of the Lamb.
How embarrassing and shameful it will be for all those being purged in God’s
Spiritual Consuming Lake of Fire to see and acknowledge their whole life of sin
in the very PRESENCE of the Lamb of God who died for them. EVERY heart in the universe
will melt like snow in a furnace when they face the Lamb of God in JUDGEMENT.

THE LAKE OF DIVINE SPIRITUAL FIRE WILL BRING SALVATION TO ALL THE NATIONS.
the billions of people purged are saved in , yet so as by Gods spiritual consuming fire. ( 1Cor. 3:15)

Maybe you are being called to respond to God’s plea. “ Come out of her my people”

May we all here on BT pray for endurance and patience while we wait .
If you do not understand the difference between tribulation and affliction and wrath and indignation
Rays article Of Rapture explains it in detail.