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Author Topic: Giving Christ His due  (Read 548 times)

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Dynamo54

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Giving Christ His due
« on: June 18, 2022, 10:58:27 PM »


I read a question and answer to Ray on the BT website. Here is his answer to someone’s comment that Herbert Armstrong “taught Jesus Christ”:

  “I don't believe Mr. Armstrong said, "Follow CHRIST."  When I look back in retrospect, Mr. Armstrong avoided the Name of Jesus Christ like the plague. He spoke of God and the Father, but seldom did the name of Jesus Christ ever come across his lips.” (WWCG/Armstrong, April, 2007).

I have to say from experience that what Ray said is true…and therein lies my comment.

As I referenced in an earlier post, I was associated with the WWCG  for 18 years baptized and an additional 7 years studying. From that experience I have found/thought that I have not always given Christ His due. By that I mean until starting to study with Ray I always prayed only to the Father, and that is appropriate, but I believe I really only thought about God in my life via the Father. Oh of course I know of His only begotten Son, and Christ’s sacrifice and His being the God of the Old Testament.  It is that because of 20 something years of all the focus on The Father and on the “law” , and we having to overcome and keep the law, and Jesus in reality being given short shrift via teaching…that I realize that I haven’t in my thoughts given Christ His due.

When you are convinced that Christ did indeed fulfill the Law and the Prophets as Ray taught (instead of “filling full” the law and requiring more enhanced keeping of the Sabbath, the holy days, the tithes, etc as taught in the WWCG) then you (by that I mean me) really have to have Christ as your focus and not the commandments. It was about a year after studying with BT that I came to realize how much I in my thoughts was not thinking about Jesus Christ, and was still focusing on the Father.

I have been asking the Father to help me more fully understand the Elohim family and Christ in particular in my thoughts and meditation.
We know that all is of God, and right now all is of Christ by command of the Father. I know that I never spoke to Christ in my prayers, but did always end by asking in Christ’s name, but I began wondering if I was just saying rote words by saying “in Christ name, amen”.

So Ray’s video’s and writings have focused me more on the Son, as I think is intended by the Father, both in my thoughts and in my prayers.
Coming from a strict legalistic background which really emphasized YOU overcoming was an eye opener when I found BT. I at first would read something like tithing is not scriptural and say to myself “that can’t be right”. And then after study and much prayer I saw that it, and much much more WAS right.

When you are focused on “you” overcoming you don’t focus much on Christ. While still attending the WWCG I always felt down because I never could spiritually do what I wanted, and I knew that God was not fooled. So now, knowing that all my focus has to be on Christ and Him in me, that is what I pray about a lot now because I have a long way to go allowing Christ to work in me.

Legalism focuses you away from Christ. Focusing my thoughts and prayers on my relationship with Christ is my goal now, so that I can give Christ all praise and worship.
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indianabob

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Re: Giving Christ His due
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2022, 12:23:12 PM »

hello Dynamo,

appreciate learning of your history in WCG.
I was a participating member from 1969 to 1999 and experienced much of what you have related to the forum. Thanks for sharing.
Indiana Bob
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Dynamo54

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Re: Giving Christ His due
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2022, 12:39:43 PM »

I was there a long time but do not look on that time with anger. I know some hold strong negative feelings about that/those churches. No one ever twisted my arm or held a gun to my head, and I have always felt I have to own the decisions I make in life. I am responsible for my actions and no one else.
But through Ray at BTruths I know now there is no free will…something that took me awhile to study through until I really saw it.

So I now look on my life and everything that happens and understand that what happens was meant to happen…even the “bad” stuff. Who I am to question God’s plan for the world and for me?

That knowledge gives me some comfort when I see all that happens in the world today and also makes me ask God to hurry His kingdom if it be His will. I sure hope it His will that we are in the very very last days.
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indianabob

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Re: Giving Christ His due
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2022, 02:14:17 PM »

Hi again Dynamo,
Thanks for your reply. Very helpful.

On a slightly side note about living the Israelite life.
I find that living as a Jewish proselyte all those years gave me an insight into God's plan that I could not otherwise have had. It also convinced me that I did not belong to that administration, but rather to an administration of grace.
So when Christ returns to rule and installs the chosen people of God into global government in Jerusalem as promised, it will be easier to understand the fulfillment of God's plan.
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Dynamo54

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Re: Giving Christ His due
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2022, 02:53:46 PM »

Interesting way to phrase it, “Jewish proselyte”.

Even I after I quit attending in 1998 because of the different factions and changing doctrines, I always after that, until I found BT, believed that the WWCG prophecies were going to happen. When I was asked by others where I attended I told them I was in the church of You and me Lord, You and me.  And I was okay with that for many years because I saw no other church that I thought had the “truths” as I understood them.

It is interesting to me how many of the commenters to BT were part of the WWCG churches. And when I first  read Ray his style seemed right and familiar. It was probably 6 months after that I found out he had been a WWCG minister, and another year that I found out that he had died in 2012. I so wanted to ask him a few questions!

I know now those years were not wasted but were meant to be. Each in his/her own time to understand. And maybe I am one of the elect…only time will tell. It seems unrealistic for me to think that I am.

One of the the questions I so wanted to ask Ray was about the 144,000 in Revelation. Is that truly the number of the elect? Revelation said it is 12k from each of the tribes of Israel, but we know that the called are spiritual Israel so it can’t be physical Israel.

144,000 out the billions of those who have lived makes it even MORE fantastic that I would be an elect. Many are called but few are chosen. How few? Revelation says Christ returns with the ten thousands of His saint army. Tens of thousands fit nicely into 144,000. Mind boggling to think about it. 😀

Anyway, it really won’t matter in my case if I have not allowed Christ to make me ready….either ready for the first resurrection or ready for the second where I would be able to get up to speed quickly.
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Giving Christ His due
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2022, 05:22:57 PM »

Quote
but we know that the called are spiritual Israel so it can’t be physical Israel.

FYI: The 'State of Israel' (government) is not our friend.
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Musterseed

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Re: Giving Christ His due
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2022, 07:09:41 PM »

Also for your information as a fellow worshiper of Christ.
I noticed you have used the word allowing/ allowed.

To quote you”” I have a long way to go ALLOWING Christ to work in me.

and “ anyway it really won’t matter in my case if I have not ALLOWED Christ
to work in me.

Phil. 2:13… For it is God ( who,man? No,) God which works in you both to
will and to do of His good pleasure.

John 6:44… NO ONE can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw ( Greek, drag)
him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 15:16… You have not chosen me , but I have chosen you.

John 15: 5… I am the vine , you are the branches, for WITHOUT ME , you can do nothing.

God is sovereign. He is in control of everything and does not change.
Sir, do you really think in your heart that God needs your permission
to make you ready?

Romans 9:21.. Has not the Potter power over the clay, of the same lump
to make one vessel unto honor and one unto dishonour?

Contrary to what is taught in Christianity,
 to quote Ray “ Man is not running God’s  creation, God is.”

This word allow ,,,, in my humble opinion, demeans the Sovereignty of God.
And this free Will doctrine free moral agency is one of lawlessness. See 2 Thes.2-3.
I don’t have much contact with Christians , none really except the ones who come to my door
or call me on the phone to do a survey about Covid before they profess they are Christian and
try to convince me that I must ALLOW God to come into my heart as if I had the power
and Will myself. I am not trying to offend you Sir, I am just stating Scriptures of which
I truly believe and pray that you consider getting away from using this word, allow.
Again,,, it is not scriptural.

In Christ , Pamela


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Dynamo54

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Re: Giving Christ His due
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2022, 07:40:26 PM »

I can’t be offended Pamela, and I appreciate you taking the time and thought to comment. 😀

I agree that “allow” could be taken the wrong way. In my mind it goes along with me not getting in the way of Christ. I agree totally that I cannot restrict whatever Christ has in store for my path to the Family.

I see myself as I am and know that if Christ returned today that I would not be with him. I also know that He will do as He has planned for me in my life. I just really have difficulty thinking I am elect. All your scriptures are on point…I read them often. I would be grateful if I had indication that I am elect, but then Paul says take heed if you think you stand lest you fall. So it is probably best not to know. I don’t plan on giving up.

Thanks for your input.
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ralph

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Re: Giving Christ His due
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2022, 12:03:21 AM »

Also for your information as a fellow worshiper of Christ.
I noticed you have used the word allowing/ allowed.

To quote you”” I have a long way to go ALLOWING Christ to work in me.

and “ anyway it really won’t matter in my case if I have not ALLOWED Christ
to work in me.

Phil. 2:13… For it is God ( who,man? No,) God which works in you both to
will and to do of His good pleasure.

John 6:44… NO ONE can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw ( Greek, drag)
him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 15:16… You have not chosen me , but I have chosen you.

John 15: 5… I am the vine , you are the branches, for WITHOUT ME , you can do nothing.

God is sovereign. He is in control of everything and does not change.
Sir, do you really think in your heart that God needs your permission
to make you ready?

Romans 9:21.. Has not the Potter power over the clay, of the same lump
to make one vessel unto honor and one unto dishonour?

Contrary to what is taught in Christianity,
 to quote Ray “ Man is not running God’s  creation, God is.”

This word allow ,,,, in my humble opinion, demeans the Sovereignty of God.
And this free Will doctrine free moral agency is one of lawlessness. See 2 Thes.2-3.
I don’t have much contact with Christians , none really except the ones who come to my door
or call me on the phone to do a survey about Covid before they profess they are Christian and
try to convince me that I must ALLOW God to come into my heart as if I had the power
and Will myself. I am not trying to offend you Sir, I am just stating Scriptures of which
I truly believe and pray that you consider getting away from using this word, allow.
Again,,, it is not scriptural.

In Christ , Pamela
It did not come across as offensive Pamela.  It came across, to me at least,  like a loving rebuke from a concerned friend. 
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ralph

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Re: Giving Christ His due
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2022, 12:06:33 AM »

Quote
but we know that the called are spiritual Israel so it can’t be physical Israel.

FYI: The 'State of Israel' (government) is not our friend.

Exactly right Dennis. 
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Musterseed

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Re: Giving Christ His due
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2022, 12:18:37 PM »

Thank you for your support Ralph.

Dynamo54, your name suggests you are a bundle of energy. I think that’s a parable.😁😂

You said , “ I would be grateful if I had indication that I am elect.”

As we all know by now , the elect were predestined before they were even born.
Rom.8:29, 8:30,Eph.1:5, 1:11 James 1:18 and more.

We have read the scripture ,,, Christ knows those that are His and Ray says “ because we don’t “

However with that said I will quote Paul.

2 Tim.4:6-8,,, For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure
has come. I have fought the good fight , I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Henceforth there IS laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord , the righteous
judge WILL award to me on that day, and not only to me but to all who love His appearing.


I have thought about this and about Paul and his immeasurable love for His Lord. Not only
did Paul suffer tremendously, he wanted to . Remember when the apostles rejoiced at being
beaten for preaching Christ. It made them very happy.😁
Paul knew he was nearing death and he knew how much he loved the Lord , he was filled with
this love. I believe that this kind of love for our Lord is the key to overcoming. After all, God is love .

These scriptures are beautiful.

2 Cor. 5: 14… For the love of Christ controls us

Acts 18:5.. When Silas and Timothy arrived from Macedonia, Paul was occupied
with the word, testifying to the Jews that the Christ was Jesus.

Job 32:18… For I am full of words; the Spirit within me constrains me.

I can really see Paul’s attitude in this scripture.

Jer.20: 9,,, If I say , I will not mention Him, or speak anymore in His name ,
there is in my heart as it were a burning fire shut up in my bones , I am weary
with holding it in , and I cannot.

1 John 4:19… We love because He first loved us.

Why does God love us?

John 16:27… for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved me.

1 John 4:16… So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God
is LOVE  and whoever abides in love abides in God and God abides in him.

1 John 4:17,,, As He is, so are we in THIS WORLD.

Jesus overcame this world , we are also to overcome.
A quote from Ray, “ you can’t decide to stay in bed and stop living unless it has already
been predetermined before the foundation of the world that this is the course you must
take. We are the actors on God’s  stage of life and we will perform as God directs.

As for the 144,000. I believe it is a symbol and not the real number. Another discussion maybe.

May the grace and peace and LOVE of Our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus, be with you all.


Any thoughts greatly appreciated.
In Christ, Pamela


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