> General Discussions
Is Jesus Christ Eternal
Anjel Uriel:
--- Quote from: octoberose on September 06, 2022, 01:18:47 AM ---Anjel, I enjoy listening to your thoughts. Thank you for taking part in the forum. I've been gone for a while and happy I tuned back in.
I never thought that Ray or any of the moderators here said that Christ was eternal and that qualified him to be worshipped, or that he wasn't eternal and that disqualified him. . On the contrary, Ray's writings shone a light on the relationship between God and his son that had been in plain view and I always just dismissed any questions I had. My understanding from all the scripture in bible-truths is that Jesus was given his position by God, he didn't take it from God. How could he be eternal if he was created by God and if he died on the cross ? God ( actually, God is his title I believe , not his name) gave his title to his son just as any of you could pass on a title to your child. Christ was given the spirit of his Father and without that he would not have been able to represent his Father . A Trinity, as Ray taught scripture to say, is a closed system but the family of God is open and will open to all of us. We will be like Christ when the time comes.
You said, "So this let us know that in a way our sonship and Christ’s are different. If I’m not mistaken orthodoxy says that it means that Christ is eternally generated by God the Father. ". I wouldn't put too much store on what orthodoxy says- they tend to get it wrong. :)
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Hi Octoberose, thanks for listening to my thoughts, that comment actually made me physically smile 😊. I know Ray not any of the mods taught that Christ is eternal, it was just some posts by old members, (from what I’ve seen, they don’t post anymore) that made it seem like they believed in the doctrine of Binitarianism, which in a nutshell is the same as the Trinity but removing the Holy Spirit. God is 2 eternal “persons” to use their terms.
I saw those posts and was like “what are they even talking about” yet I read them and honestly instead of gaining more knowledge, I just got confused. It seems paradoxical to say “Jesus Christ is eternal and was not created by God, only begotten” and then turn around and say “Jesus Christ died crucified and His Father is Greater than Him”. Like excuse me? If they’re both eternal then The Father can’t be greater than Him, for example, my father, is greater then me because I came out/from him and he existed before I existed and even though he has given me authority over my siblings because I’m his firstborn, I still consider him greater because the only reason I can act on his behalf is because he freely gave me this.
Even though this example is in human terms, I see it as a parable of Christ’s relationship with The Father. Like you said, God is a title and He can give that title to whosoever He desires so obviously He would give it to Jesus as He is His Firstborn and in The Scriptures, The Firstborn is given a double portion of father’s inheritance because “he’s the beginning of his father’s strength”.
I look at it the same way with Christ, Jesus was created and begotten by God and as The Firstborn and the first creation, He was given The Title and all the privileges of God but will always be subject to The Father because He received everything freely and His Father will always still be His God.
Also you are right, orthodoxy scholarship is a bunch of contradictory statements with big words to sound smart and wise so they can receive praise of men.
Musterseed:
Hello Anjel
There is an audio where Ray says that we will not be exactly LIKE Christ.
The word like means SIMILAR. LIKE does not mean the same.
I don’t remember which audio it was , I’m sure the Mods can direct you.
Keep up the good work Anjel, I also enjoy your posts.
John 12:46….. I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me
May not remain in darkness.
And eventually all mankind will believe. Praise God.
indianabob:
The word perfect can mean complete or fulfilled.
So Christ need not have been perfect as a human, but still without sin.
Christ came to earth to serve as a sacrifice for our sins.
Also Christ came to earth, leaving his immortality behind, in order to demonstrate his trust in the Father to restore to him all that he had previously.
= = =
If I might add a dash of seasoning.
Jesus didn't show up on scene perfect.
He was perfected in His suffering.
Our subjection to the grist of good and evil isn't to choose between one or the other.
It's a path of purification between the two that all creation passes through.
Including the Son
Kindly offered, Indy
* * *
--- Quote from: Anjel Uriel on September 05, 2022, 10:20:11 PM ---
--- Quote from: ralph on September 05, 2022, 05:54:50 PM ---"But, it means that Jesus is Special, He’s The Son who has never sinned, who was never disobedient, who was never adopted and reborn."
I'm not so sure about that. We read here:
Hebrews 5:8
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
Now I don't fully understand this, so I am just thinking out loud here. If Christ was perfect and one with the father as a flesh and blood human being, how could he then "learn obedience". If he was perfect, what did he have to learn? Does that not mean that he went through a process of learning "before" he emptied himself and became human? Was he always perfect like his father? I'm not so sure about this.
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Hi Ralph, I was talking about Jesus in His Life while in the flesh. Jesus couldn’t have been disobedient or imperfect while a flesh and blood human being because that would be a sin and He never sinned. He already was One with His Father while on Earth, otherwise He wouldn’t have been able to claim He was One with The Father (John 10:30), that He was in The Father (John 14:20), that He who sees Him sees The Father (John 14:9) and that He always does the things that please The Father (John 8:29).
But, we don’t know if Jesus went through a process of chastisement, regeneration and learning obedience before coming to Earth. I’m inclined to believe, like it seems you suggested and Ray also did, that Jesus before coming to Earth and even before The Creation of the world, became The Son of God by learning obedience, we know He had glory before coming to Earth (John 17:5) but if Glory is something you get after experiencing Good and Evil and travail, doesn’t that mean He went trough that before the foundation of the world?
So yes, I stand by my statement that Jesus is Special, He’s The Son who has never sinned, who was never disobedient, who was never adopted and reborn. But, this is all while in the flesh, we don’t know for certain if there was a time before the creation and coming to Earth when He wasn’t perfect.
This is what Ray commented about how Jesus learning obedience.
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,4472.0.html
I think He learned obedience before He was born and reduced down to a man and so on and so forth.
John 17:5 “And now, Father, glorify Me with Thine own Self with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”
Now, we don’t think about these things. I’m trying to get people to look at these scriptures. Look at the words, believe it and see what it says. “glorify Me with thine own self with the glory which I had…” Glorify mean a worthy name or worthy to be praised or worthy to be extolled or worshipped. Christ said, give Me back this glory which I had with You. Where did He get it? What did Jesus Christ do, before the foundation of the world, that entitled Him to glory? What? I mean does God just put crowns and accolades on people? What did He do to deserve it, nothing? I’m all powerful. Where did He get the power? Christ tells where He got His power and stuff. He said God gave it to Me, “all power is given to Me of the Father.” That’s where He got it.
But now glory is something that you do, that exalts you as someone to be worshipped, adored, and appreciated, for what, you’ve done. What did He do before the creation of the world? Before He created the world... what did He do? Well I contend that He did something.
Somebody ask the other day, ‘why is God going through all this ( I could almost hear them say nonsense) to create sons of God? If He created Christ Jesus, why doesn’t He just create a whole bunch of Jesus'? Well why doesn’t He just make a whole bunch of Jesus’? We wouldn’t have to go through all this pain and suffering, growing old and being sick, hurting and dying? Just create a bunch of Jesus’ and then He’ll have all the sons He wants.
We don’t know what Jesus went through. How did He become number One? How did He become the Son of God? How did He become glorified? What did He go through? It says;
Heb 5:8 “though He was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which He suffered;”
‘Yea, but that was talking about things in His physical life.’ Was it? Was it really? We could say that and give examples of it But is that exclusively what it was talking about? Only in the physical flesh, did He suffer to learn obedience and so on?
Then Jesus Christ... we are going to see who and what He is. He learned obedience by the things that He suffered, just as a human. How did He become the Son of God? Did God just say, I’m going to create a Son and whoosh...?
A woman sent me an email and said, 'why didn’t He just create a whole bunch of Jesus’? Why do we have to go through all of this to become sons of God... pain, suffering, growing old, disease, losing loved ones, wars, torture, why? If all He had to do was just make a bunch of Jesus’ then He would have all the sons He wants.'
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Dennis Vogel:
--- Quote from: indianabob on September 06, 2022, 12:35:00 PM ---Also Christ came to earth, leaving his immortality behind, in order to demonstrate his trust in the Father to restore to him all that he had previously.
--- End quote ---
Did you not see my post talking about the Father Bob? 1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality...
Christ never had immortality.
indianabob:
Hi Dennis,
Sorry if I was not clear about Christ's situation when he was existing in the heavenlies before the creation of the earth.
If we accept that Christ existed with Father God before matter was created and if we accept that they planned that he lay down his life according to plan before he was conceived in the womb of Mary, then was he not immortal or "undying" prior to the formation of earth and Adam and Eve?
* 1 Tim 6:14-16 seems to refer to Christ Jesus as Lord of Lords rather than the Father GOD almighty.
=
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Please correct any misunderstanding of mine. Thank you, Indiana Bob
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